Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[Blizzkit 🌳]

As much as I like Town Slimes, I wish there was a way to prevent them from moving in/respawning. Unlike with regular NPCs, you can't just not build houses or use the new stinkbug blockers since the slimes just move in with already existing NPCs, and unlike the optional Zoologist's town pets, the slimes aren't really optional, I guess technically they are, but you would have to go really out of your way to not unlock a single one in a playthrough.

An easy although not very elegant solution would be to add another type of NPC blocker, but exclusively for town pets/slimes, ideally I'd like to see an item that could toggle the slimes on and off, could be sold by the Zoologist.

 

[zkksch]

Maybe Molten Quiver should give all arrows hellfire debuff (similar to how Frost armor set bonus works but only for arrows) because it's the same thing what magma stone does for melee weapons. Kinda strange that instead of having same effect it just converts wooden arrows.

Also I think flaming/frostburn arrows and flask of fire should use hardmode variants of debuffs after defeating WoF or have hardmode alternatives that use those debuffs.

 

[ShinyLine]

Maybe Molten Quiver should give all arrows hellfire debuff (similar to how Frost armor set bonus works but only for arrows) because it's the same thing what magma stone does for melee weapons. Kinda strange that instead of having same effect it just converts wooden arrows.

Also I think flaming/frostburn arrows and flask of fire should use hardmode variants of debuffs after defeating WoF or have hardmode alternatives that use those debuffs.

A "Flask Of Hellfire" specifically would be incredibly useless, because Melee already has the Magma Stone since Pre-Hardmode, and Summoner immediately gets the Firecracker after WoF which now inflicts Hellfire, and BOTH get to use the Flask Of Cursed Flames which is immediately stronger than Hellfire.

And that buffed Molten Quiver would be another problem with all of this if you consider stacking Frost Armor and Cursed Flames Arrows (that's already like 64 DoT before Mech Bosses, and Ranger doesn't really need this); if anything, the Molten Quiver should only convert Wooden Arrows to a special type of Fire Arrows that inflict Hellfire because On Fire! is useless at that point, but not EVERY type of Arrow. This would fix the "problem" without going on with the "Fire Arrows inflict Hellfire in Hardmode because yes" idea, and also making the Molten Quiver actually worth it by itself and not just useful only to stack it with the other two.

And with "Frostburn to Frostbite Arrows"; dude, Frostbite is an INSANE debuff to be able to inflict it for free immediately after WoF and "out-of-nowhere". Also, this would make Frost Armor's Set Bonus less useful for Rangers, and Cursed Flames Arrows would not be important at all apart from the higher damage of the arrows themselves.

 

[NeoPhantom]

if anything, the Molten Quiver should only convert Wooden Arrows to a special type of Fire Arrows that inflict Hellfire because On Fire! is useless at that point, but not EVERY type of Arrow. This would fix the "problem" without going on with the "Fire Arrows inflict Hellfire in Hardmode because yes" idea, and also making the Molten Quiver actually worth it by itself and not just useful only to stack it with the other two.

And with "Frostburn to Frostbite Arrows"; dude, Frostbite is an INSANE debuff to be able to inflict it for free immediately after WoF and "out-of-nowhere". Also, this would make Frost Armor's Set Bonus less useful for Rangers, and Cursed Flames Arrows would not be important at all apart from the higher damage of the arrows themselves.

Thats already how Molten Quiver works (converting regular arrows into Fire Arrows) and how the Frost Armor interacts with it (the effects of the two do not stack, the Frost Armor effect supercedes the arrow’s effect). Also Frost Armor inflicts Frostbite now.

 

[ShinyLine]

Thats already how Molten Quiver works (converting regular arrows into Fire Arrows) and how the Frost Armor interacts with it (the effects of the two do not stack, the Frost Armor effect supercedes the arrow’s effect). Also Frost Armor inflicts Frostbite now.

Yeah, I know, but I was talking about Molten Quiver's Fire Arrows that could inflict "Hellfire" instead of "On Fire!", and I actually didn't know the Frost Armor overrides the Molten Quiver, that's good to know, although it makes its Magma Stone effect useless after you get the Frost Armor with the already nerfed Quivers. (Which maybe isn't that important, it's just one Set Bonus in the entire game interacting with the Molten Quiver after all.)

 

[Dreadnautilus5000🌳]

I kinda feel like True Night's Edge is just better than True Excalibur. Within the TNE aura range (which is about 8 blocks) its DPS is in the 1100s and 1200s with a standard melee dps build, while True Excalibur gets only between 800 and 1000 DPS. Once you can see the green TNE projectiles, its hitrate does go down significantly, which makes it slightly worse than True Excalibur for a few blocks beyond 8 blocks, however after about 12 blocks from the player True Excalibur can't hit at all, so TNE outperforms it. And TNE keeps this same DPS no matter where you aim the cursor and at what angle the enemy is at, whereas TE cannot hit anything beneath it.

Basically this means TNE does more DPS than TE if you are attempting to be in the enemy's face, and while I could see True Excalibur being more consistent at slightly larger ranges, True Night's Edge has a projectile that enables it to do actually something at range, so in general it seems just better close up and far away. To fix this either TNE could be nerfed or TE could be buffed. I tend to think the latter would be better since TE is barely more DPS than Excalibur rn.

 

[zkksch]

And that buffed Molten Quiver would be another problem with all of this if you consider stacking Frost Armor and Cursed Flames Arrows (that's already like 64 DoT before Mech Bosses, and Ranger doesn't really need this); if anything, the Molten Quiver should only convert Wooden Arrows to a special type of Fire Arrows that inflict Hellfire because On Fire! is useless at that point, but not EVERY type of Arrow. This would fix the "problem" without going on with the "Fire Arrows inflict Hellfire in Hardmode because yes" idea, and also making the Molten Quiver actually worth it by itself and not just useful only to stack it with the other two.

Like I said, it's how magma stone works on melee, see no balance issues for rangers to have same thing. You can have all 4 flame debuffs from one attack on melee before mechs and it's with shadowflame knife - weapon with good range and similar dps as its ranged counterpart (so no reason to compensate melee style combat here), haven't seen any complaints about it.

The change you suggested makes no difference. Even if flaming arrows from quiver will use hellfire they still will be too weak compared to other hardmode arrows. Being able to use endless quiver was some advantage before, but now with 9999 stacks being endless is just a small bonus, and converted arrows should be at least the same level as crafted to be useful.

And with "Frostburn to Frostbite Arrows"; dude, Frostbite is an INSANE debuff to be able to inflict it for free immediately after WoF and "out-of-nowhere". Also, this would make Frost Armor's Set Bonus less useful for Rangers, and Cursed Flames Arrows would not be important at all apart from the higher damage of the arrows themselves.

Frostbite has 25 dps, cursed inferno - 24, not that big of a difference, you can inflict cursed inferno almost instantly after entering hardmode (cursed darts, flask) so don't make it look like frostbite is something so impactful and strong. About frost armor be "less useful" and cursed arrows "would not be important", cursed arrows not only have 10 extra base damage but also debuff from them lasts 7 seconds vs 3 seconds from frostburn arrows.

A "Flask Of Hellfire" specifically would be incredibly useless, because Melee already has the Magma Stone since Pre-Hardmode, and Summoner immediately gets the Firecracker after WoF which now inflicts Hellfire, and BOTH get to use the Flask Of Cursed Flames which is immediately stronger than Hellfire.

Flask of fire change is more about being consistent, see no reason for it to still have "on fire" debuff after entering hardmode. I agree that it still will have no practical use because cursed flask exists.

 

[Golden Heretic Snakeboat]

I kinda feel like True Night's Edge is just better than True Excalibur. Within the TNE aura range (which is about 8 blocks) its DPS is in the 1100s and 1200s with a standard melee dps build, while True Excalibur gets only between 800 and 1000 DPS. Once you can see the green TNE projectiles, its hitrate does go down significantly, which makes it slightly worse than True Excalibur for a few blocks beyond 8 blocks, however after about 12 blocks from the player True Excalibur can't hit at all, so TNE outperforms it. And TNE keeps this same DPS no matter where you aim the cursor and at what angle the enemy is at, whereas TE cannot hit anything beneath it.

Basically this means TNE does more DPS than TE if you are attempting to be in the enemy's face, and while I could see True Excalibur being more consistent at slightly larger ranges, True Night's Edge has a projectile that enables it to do actually something at range, so in general it seems just better close up and far away. To fix this either TNE could be nerfed or TE could be buffed. I tend to think the latter would be better since TE is barely more DPS than Excalibur rn.

I've noticed that true night's edge is best against single targets and at longer range, while true Excalibur is better then true night's edge at tight clusters of close enemies

 

[mathbrush]

Okay, I finished my Master Mode Ranger playthrough and am done with all classes. Here are the last thoughts:

Phantom Phoenix is still op, with chlorophyte arrows performed similar to flamethrower vs plantera but had better range.

Venus Magnum is a lot more usable now, like a megashark with better ammo conservation; great with nano bullets in dungeon

Don't know if I mentioned if before but ghastly glaive and horseman's blade are both great as side-arms for non-melee players now, as they are strong and light up a lot of the underground or find hidden enemies.

Used the nail gun, pumpkin launcher, stake launcher once I got them; nail gun has very high single-target damage that lasts for a very long time, it's hard to find anything that does better for a while (it was better than sniper rifle with crystal bullets, for example).

Elf Melter is awesome now. With shroomite helmet changes, it gets a damage boost it never had before, plus all the new changes. Vs solar eclipse, I could just fly forward on the broom and enemies would die before they could touch me. I used it to kill off Tier 3 OOA and Betsy in one try (it was risky, though, so had to use nurse; after defeating betsy and getting red riding armor, I did a rematch and killed her even faster, no nurse).

Betsy dropped aerial bane, but vs duke fishron, I died several times trying to use aerial bane and won with elf melter (after a try or two). The theoretical damage of elf melter is lower, but it's so easy to aim and Duke Fishron keeps close enough to you that it made fighting and dodging a lot easier. Elf melter was also great vs martian invasion enemies and saucer, but risky.

Vs ice queens, aerial bane was better, and once they dropped snowman cannon, I switched away from elf melter to that, and later to vortex beater.

Overall for ranger, not much was changed, but the flamethrower changes were definitely the best part, and the shroomite helmet. Phantom phoenix is seriously pretty op, and nail gun might be a little too strong as well. None of the ranged weapons I tried felt seriously underpowered. The last thing would be huntress armor; I mentioned it in an earlier post, but it's weaker both than similarly-tiered ranger armor and the other tier 2 OOA armors for the other classes.

Having tried all the classes with the new update and the new seeds (outside of getfixedboi), I definitely think balance has gotten a ton better. The immunity frame changes fixed a lot, I think, with flamethrower, rainbow gun, and broadswords particularly benefitting.

 

[NeoPhantom]

Yeah, particularly noticeable when you use both against Plantera. True Nights Edge is better against phase 1, but True Excalibur is better against phase 2.

 

[ItsTheKais]

I disagree with teleporters becoming available post-Skeletron. That's way, way too early, and minimizes the benefit of pylons too much. The spot they were in previously (post-first-mech) was perfectly fine, allowing all of the town pylons to shine for at least a brief moment before the more flexible alternative comes into play.

(Also, the Steampunker still talks about teleporters in one line of her dialog, which doesn't make sense anymore now that she doesn't sell them... to be clear, I don't have an issue with the Mechanic selling them, just the point at which they become available)

 

[Cave wizard]

I disagree with teleporters becoming available post-Skeletron. That's way, way too early, and minimizes the benefit of pylons too much. The spot they were in previously (post-first-mech) was perfectly fine, allowing all of the town pylons to shine for at least a brief moment before the more flexible alternative comes into play.

I don't get why people ask "please take away this massive QoL improvement". Anyway, post-mechanical boss more or less marks the point where the game becomes a boss rush, as past that point you essentially go from boss to boss in areas you've already explored. I wouldn't say that up to that point is "a brief moment". The majority of exploration will be done before hardmode, as there is little reason to explore once you have entered it except to grab pre-hardmode items that you skipped. Making teleporters available when the player is still exploring, and also before the hardmode tools that speed up travel such as wings and the rod of discord, has been a significant convenience. The happiness system still forces encourages you to build towns all over the map, and teleporters allow you to branch out to areas near the towns. For example, all my ocean towns now contain a teleporter connection to the shimmer biome. I think that the QoL improvement easily outweighs any concerns about pylons being less useful in comparison. Also, pylons don't require ugly wires all over the world, and I think that alone justifies their existence.

 

[ShinyLine]

The change you suggested makes no difference. Even if flaming arrows from quiver will use hellfire they still will be too weak compared to other hardmode arrows. Being able to use endless quiver was some advantage before, but now with 9999 stacks being endless is just a small bonus, and converted arrows should be at least the same level as crafted to be useful.

Still, it's an idea to buff the Molten Quiver itself and make it more unique than before, especially with how big of a nerf it (and the other two Quivers) got. Maybe the Molten Quiver's arrows could get a damage buff themselves to make them even more viable, just not too strong.

Frostbite has 25 dps, cursed inferno - 24, not that big of a difference, you can inflict cursed inferno almost instantly after entering hardmode (cursed darts, flask) so don't make it look like frostbite is something so impactful and strong. About frost armor be "less useful" and cursed arrows "would not be important", cursed arrows not only have 10 extra base damage but also debuff from them lasts 7 seconds vs 3 seconds from frostburn arrows.

I was specifically talking about the change you proposed about "Frostburn Arrows inflict Frostbite Post-WoF"; not only it doesn't make sense and comes out-of-where, but the Cursed Arrows atleast have some work to do before actually getting them. (Farming enemies or fishing.)

This is why I'm talking about Frostbite being so strong in this scenario where you "get it for free" just from killing WoF.

Also, the debuff duration isn't really impactful because you are 99% of the time attacking and inflicting the debuff again and again.

Flask of fire change is more about being consistent, see no reason for it to still have "on fire" debuff after entering hardmode. I agree that it still will have no practical use because cursed flask exists.

Not only there's really no way to tell you that the Flask of Fire changed upon WoF's defeat, but then you have the Flask of Poison too, and you obviously can't buff it to Acid Venom.

 

[ItsTheKais]

I wouldn't say that up to that point is "a brief moment".

I'm not calling all of pre-hardmode a brief moment. I'm calling the period of time when you have all of the town pylons - the point where pylons are at their most practical - a brief moment. You only get the last one post-Wall of Flesh, Universal Pylon notwithstanding. You (used to) unlock the much more powerful teleportation method just one boss later, which I feel was a good state of affairs.

This change has made something else much less useful, so I think it's reasonable to criticize its effect on game balance, regardless of any "QoL improvment" it might resemble.

 

[zkksch]

Still, it's an idea to buff the Molten Quiver itself and make it more unique than before, especially with how big of a nerf it (and the other two Quivers) got. Maybe the Molten Quiver's arrows could get a damage buff themselves to make them even more viable, just not too strong.

The problem of your suggestion that there is no balance point. You either making arrows from that quiver same as useful as other available arrows on that stage (ichor/cursed/shadowflame) and it will make this quiver a bit too strong, or make them worse (even slightly) and no one will use that quiver effect ever.

I still see no problems with my variant. Not only it already in the game, and no one have ever called it OP, but ranger also already have frost armor set bonus, that litterally does the same but better, and still no one have ever called it OP. Your point about stacking makes no sense, it's not like you getting all 64 dps from that change, you will have only extra 15 from it. And like I said that flame stacking in even better form already in the game.

Also, the debuff duration isn't really impactful because you are 99% of the time attacking and inflicting the debuff again and again

If you're using flame debuffs that way, that's your problems. Most effective way of using those debuffs is set fire to as many enemies as possible and only after that start focusing targets, and having longer debuff increases dps you have from flame debuffs significantly.

I was specifically talking about the change you proposed about "Frostburn Arrows inflict Frostbite Post-WoF"; not only it doesn't make sense and comes out-of-where, but the Cursed Arrows atleast have some work to do before actually getting them. (Farming enemies or fishing.)

No one talked about cursed arrows, darts and flask crafted like in 2-3 minutes after defeating WoF and both of them inflict cursed inferno.

About having sense, maybe you really didn't see it, but my point is making replacement of frostburn and on fire with hardmode alternatives more consistent, and replace some pre-hardmode debuff sources that can be used in hardmode with hardmode weapons (arrows and flasks) to use those debuffs too.

 

[Zenithmaker]

I kinda feel like True Night's Edge is just better than True Excalibur. Within the TNE aura range (which is about 8 blocks) its DPS is in the 1100s and 1200s with a standard melee dps build, while True Excalibur gets only between 800 and 1000 DPS. Once you can see the green TNE projectiles, its hitrate does go down significantly, which makes it slightly worse than True Excalibur for a few blocks beyond 8 blocks, however after about 12 blocks from the player True Excalibur can't hit at all, so TNE outperforms it. And TNE keeps this same DPS no matter where you aim the cursor and at what angle the enemy is at, whereas TE cannot hit anything beneath it.

Basically this means TNE does more DPS than TE if you are attempting to be in the enemy's face, and while I could see True Excalibur being more consistent at slightly larger ranges, True Night's Edge has a projectile that enables it to do actually something at range, so in general it seems just better close up and far away. To fix this either TNE could be nerfed or TE could be buffed. I tend to think the latter would be better since TE is barely more DPS than Excalibur rn.

True Excalibur is not weak.It's perfect to vs plentera and mothron.It is really useful in complex terrain and keep the enemy away.TNE has higher dps in melee range but its projectile is weird,so it is more suitable in flat terrain. I think both two weapons are great but not overpowered.

 

[AidanMariocraze]

It would be kinda cool if gold critters made an audible cue to tell that they're nearby, like a twinkling sound that's gets louder the closer you are to them

 

[Swordlord00]

The Dryad sells the opposite evil grass in a graveyard.

That's the grass, not the background grass walls, which can't be crafted or harvested.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

That's way, way too early, and minimizes the benefit of pylons too much.

The benefit of Pylons is you don't have to waste tons of time jury-rigging wire across your entire world for the same hotspots every time or remembering which lever sends you where. They win over Teleporters in almost every situation entirely due to availability and ease of use - some of my friends still don't understand Wire, and now they don't have to ask me to set up Teleporter hubs anymore because Pylons do it for you in an organic way.

You set up towns in biomes you would want to have Teleporters set up to, and then you dedicate Teleporters for specific niche cases like the Dungeon farm you carved out near the bottom of it, your Corrupt fishing area, etc.

 

[ShinyLine]

The problem of your suggestion that there is no balance point. You either making arrows from that quiver same as useful as other available arrows on that stage (ichor/cursed/shadowflame) and it will make this quiver a bit too strong, or make them worse (even slightly) and no one will use that quiver effect ever.

I still see no problems with my variant. Not only it already in the game, and no one have ever called it OP, but ranger also already have frost armor set bonus, that litterally does the same but better, and still no one have ever called it OP. Your point about stacking makes no sense, it's not like you getting all 64 dps from that change, you will have only extra 15 from it. And like I said that flame stacking in even better form already in the game.


If you're using flame debuffs that way, that's your problems. Most effective way of using those debuffs is set fire to as many enemies as possible and only after that start focusing targets, and having longer debuff increases dps you have from flame debuffs significantly.


No one talked about cursed arrows, darts and flask crafted like in 2-3 minutes after defeating WoF and both of them inflict cursed inferno.

About having sense, maybe you really didn't see it, but my point is making replacement of frostburn and on fire with hardmode alternatives more consistent, and replace some pre-hardmode debuff sources that can be used in hardmode with hardmode weapons (arrows and flasks) to use those debuffs too.

The truth is that I was in the middle of a Ranger playthrough (since v1.4.4, I was playing with every Class), and I still had the assumption that Bows and Repeaters could compete with Guns Pre-Plantera.

Even when stacking all three Magic Quivers and using Cursed Arrows, not even the Titanium Repeater could compete with something like the Onyx Blaster with Crystal Bullets. I should have tested Holy Arrows, and I will.

Yeah, I also saw that stacking Cursed Flames + Frostbite + (not yet) Hellfire as Ranger wouldn't be as strong as I was thinking.

At this point I'm thinking about a rework to the Magic Quivers themselves, because all Pre-Plantera Bows and Repeaters are inferior to Guns (not counting Daedalus Stormbow and, obviously, Tsunami); maybe they could give them the same increased-over-time fire rate mechanic as the Phantasm, without stacking it while using the variants. This maybe would need to remove the +10% increased Arrow Damage on the three Accessories. (Along with the proposed Hellfire buff to the Molten Quiver, maybe the Stalker's Quiver could still have the Putrid Scent's +5% bonuses but only applied to Arrow Damage and Arrow Critical Strike Chance.)