Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[darthmorf]

Perhaps Demon/Crimson Alters could be added to the Rubblemaker?

Hi Flubman,
Leinfors has asked you already not to make general suggestions in this thread. It is for balance suggestions/changes only. This is the last time you will be warned about this; feel free to send me a DM if you have any questions.

 

[AidanMariocraze]

I kinda disagree with these. The True Night's Calibur are in fine places right now without feeling too busted. At least the True Night's Edge compares with other long-ranged weapons like the Chain Guillotines and Sergeant United Shield. And True Excalibur has the niche of being close-ranged but with good coverage and damage.
Putting Terra Blade after Golem though would complicate things... and push it back even further into the game compared to when it was first released. It's a great melee option for the Seasonal Moons as well. We'd probably have to find some other way to rebalance it, if at all.

I was thinking of having the Chlorophyte Claymore and Saber act as weaker versions of these swords, as well as having the swords for the True Night's Edge (Requiring the Claymore) and True Excalibur (Requiring the Saber)

 

[zkksch]

A Ranged build with Shroomite Armor does a fair bit more with Elf Melter than it does with Terra Blade, even at Melee range (landing hits with both the projectile and the sword). It does more than double the damage of just the projectile, and if stealthed, its doing around triple.

I'm not saying that a Melee build with Terra Blade isn't very strong, and adjustments are being made to that, but just equipping a Terra Blade on a Ranged build is not better than Elf Melter.

Ofc I tested it with corresponding builds.



Reforges are the same (4 warding and 3 menacing)

For test I summoned ML, and left only core and attacked that core, started attacking core at 7:30pm for both tests. Didn't use any flask for terrablade. But used all other buffs available. For terrablade I kept distance to use only projectiles. Didn't use shroomite armor set bonus because standing still in real battle seems a bit unrealistic for me, its set bonus is unusable outside multiplayer. It was on godmode so I didn't miss for elf melter for sure (literally standing still) and pretty sure didn't miss with terrablade because it's really hard to miss.

Screenshots not exactly on kill, but tried to capture same death animation frame. So maybe 1-2 sec difference because of it.



Terrablade is just better even without using melee attack. Would be a bit better for elf melter vs enemies with less armor than ML core (but don't forget I didn't use ichor flask for terrablade), but I don't know how did you get 2x damage from elf meler vs terrablade projectiles.

But my point isn't complaining about terrablade being stronger, it's terrablade's problem, pretty sure it's stronger than all loot from the frost moon. For me it was just ridicolous that terrablade is better in ranged combat than actual ranged weapon from later stages of the game.

With such short range it doesn't offer anything to compensate it. Damage is ok but nothing special, piercing - quite low for that stage, stunlock - not like you're really need it, debuff from early hardmode, and also requires gel as ammo that a bit annoying to farm every time. Stake launcher for example just better in every way, easily obtainable ammo, single target damage almost the same, more piercing, infinite range, and pumpkin moon is a walk in the park compare to frost moon.

 

[AidanMariocraze]

Ofc I tested it with corresponding builds.

View attachment 388685View attachment 388686

Reforges are the same (4 warding and 3 menacing)

For test I summoned ML, and left only core and attacked that core, started attacking core at 7:30pm for both tests. Didn't use any flask for terrablade. But used all other buffs available. For terrablade I kept distance to use only projectiles. Didn't use shroomite armor set bonus because standing still in real battle seems a bit unrealistic for me, its set bonus is unusable outside multiplayer. It was on godmode so I didn't miss for elf melter for sure (literally standing still) and pretty sure didn't miss with terrablade because it's really hard to miss.

Screenshots not exactly on kill, but tried to capture same death animation frame. So maybe 1-2 sec difference because of it.

View attachment 388688View attachment 388689

Terrablade is just better even without using melee attack. Would be a bit better for elf melter vs enemies with less armor than ML core (but don't forget I didn't use ichor flask for terrablade), but I don't know how did you get 2x damage from elf meler vs terrablade projectiles.

But my point isn't complaining about terrablade being stronger, it's terrablade's problem, pretty sure it's stronger than all loot from the frost moon. For me it was just ridicolous that terrablade is better in ranged combat than actual ranged weapon from later stages of the game.

With such short range it doesn't offer anything to compensate it. Damage is ok but nothing special,

piercing - quite low for that stage, stunlock - not like you're really need it, debuff from early hardmode, and also requires gel as ammo that a bit annoying to farm every time. Stake launcher for example just better in every way, easily obtainable ammo, single target damage almost the same, more piercing, infinite range, and pumpkin moon is a walk in the park compare to frost moon.

Steak Launcher's range isn't "infinite per say"
It can pierce up to 10
Like I said earlier, The Terra Blade has a ranged attack, but it isn't a ranger weapon
It's a melee weapon

 

[Leinfors]

Ofc I tested it with corresponding builds.

That's all I wanted to clarify, from the original context of your post, it wasn't clear.

 

[zkksch]

Steak Launcher's range isn't "infinite per say"
It can pierce up to 10
Like I said earlier, The Terra Blade has a ranged attack, but it isn't a ranger weapon
It's a melee weapon

So its "ranged" attack shouldn't be better than ranged attacks from actual ranged weapon, or am I wrong? What's your point?

I didn't say infinite pierce, I said infinite range, pretty sure it's not technically infinite, but I meant that it's not affected by gravity.

 

[Swordlord00]

As far as I know, the Cloud in a Bottle isn't renewable, despite it being used to craft many things (to get all unique items from it you need over 10). You can't 'uncraft' a Blizzard in a Bottle (which are renewable) to get a Cloud in a Bottle (which is understandable, because you would get pre-HM Frost Core), but could you make it so that Shimmer can 'downgrade' the Blizzard in a Bottle to a Cloud in a Bottle (without giving a Frost Core)?

 

[mathbrush]

but I don't know how did you get 2x damage from elf meler vs terrablade projectiles.

You guys were talking apples and oranges. He was saying that using terra blade with shroomite and ranged accessories is half the damage of elf melter with shroomite and ranged accessories. You were talking about beetle armor for terra blade and shroomite for elf melter. So you were both right.

There's a big difference between the two; if terra blade with melee setup is better than elf melter with ranger setup, that's kind of bad, but not a huge deal. But if terra blade with ranger setup is better than elf melter with ranger setup, that's incredibly bad.

 

[AidanMariocraze]

You guys were talking apples and oranges. He was saying that using terra blade with shroomite and ranged accessories is half the damage of elf melter with shroomite and ranged accessories. You were talking about beetle armor for terra blade and shroomite for elf melter. So you were both right.

There's a big difference between the two; if terra blade with melee setup is better than elf melter with ranger setup, that's kind of bad, but not a huge deal. But if terra blade with ranger setup is better than elf melter with ranger setup, that's incredibly bad.

Yet we are talking about two different classes here

 

[CTNC]

As far as I know, the Cloud in a Bottle isn't renewable, despite it being used to craft many things (to get all unique items from it you need over 10). You can't 'uncraft' a Blizzard in a Bottle (which are renewable) to get a Cloud in a Bottle (which is understandable, because you would get pre-HM Frost Core), but could you make it so that Shimmer can 'downgrade' the Blizzard in a Bottle to a Cloud in a Bottle (without giving a Frost Core)?

The Balloon Pufferfish can be changed into a Shiny Red Balloon, so why not make the Tsunami in a Bottle change into a Cloud in a Bottle?

 

[Swordlord00]

The Balloon Pufferfish can be changed into a Shiny Red Balloon, so why not make the Tsunami in a Bottle change into a Cloud in a Bottle?

True, that would make more sense.

 

[DemonSword]

My general balance change I'd make is not limiting the Wizard Hat's (Tim's hat) +1 Minion Bonus to the CelebrationMK10 seed, I just feel thats a very niche thing to have that almost no one would bother with (other World Seeds offer better reasons to play it over just the Celebration seed).

 

[zkksch]

You guys were talking apples and oranges. He was saying that using terra blade with shroomite and ranged accessories is half the damage of elf melter with shroomite and ranged accessories. You were talking about beetle armor for terra blade and shroomite for elf melter. So you were both right.

There's a big difference between the two; if terra blade with melee setup is better than elf melter with ranger setup, that's kind of bad, but not a huge deal. But if terra blade with ranger setup is better than elf melter with ranger setup, that's incredibly bad.

Ok, english not my first language thanks for the clarification, why would someone even compare weapons that way? Makes no sense for me.

Yet we are talking about two different classes here

Cross-class balance same as important as balance inside classes. Most players don't even care about classes and just choosing better weapons, so they will compare terrablade to ranged or magic weapons. So I really don't understand why are you thinking that melee weapon couldn't be compared to ranged one from the same progression point, especially if we comparing only its "ranged" attack.

 

[ShinyLine]

It would be nice to see the exact number of Bait in the cursor while fishing. Currently, we can only see which Bait is being used, not how much of that Bait remains without opening the inventory. Maybe it could also be applied to Ammo.

Also, why can't we see the Attack Speed of Whips? I mean, the stat that says stuff like "Very fast speed", "Insanely fast speed" and so on. It would be nice for players who stack Melee Speed as Summoners. (Like me in my current "Whips Only" playthrough.)

 

[mathbrush]

I finished the mage playthrough.

My weapon progression after Plantera was leaf blower -> razorpine -> bubble gun -> nebula blaze. I had never really used bubble gun before because it was short distance, but I found that with the changes I could re-fight fishron, do martian madness, and fight lunatic cultist. But for Betsy and Empress of Light, it was still too dangerous to be that close (so I used laser machinegun instead).

The i-frame changes make damage much more consistent. This is especially noticeable in Old One's Army, where the flameburst buffs, rainbow gun buffs, and magnet sphere bouncing buff (plus deadly sphere buff) combined to give a major boost to damage; before, they'd be spotty, sometimes doing damage and sometimes not, but now you can tell they're all working together. I only wish I had found the nimbus rod and clinger staff.

Shadowbeam buff is good, I had one for a while and felt like it was doing good damage even to single targets; before I'd junk it immediately. Toxic Flask felt balanced with other options; I expected it to be way better or way worse than my other options (like shadowbeam staff or leaf blower) but against crowds, it felt just about the same.

The whole playthrough overall felt very consistent. The changes to mana regeneration and the i-frame resolution (which was a real problem before since there are so many 'fire and forget' mage piercing weapons), celestial magnet in sky chest loot table, and buffs to the weaker magic weapons, made it feel like I could always put up a fight even without extreme preparation, and no magic weapon I found really had to go in the trash.

 

[AidanMariocraze]

Maybe increase the Terra Blade's damage (from 85 to 110), having True melee damage deal full damage only, and the projectile deal less damage (maybe 20-30% of the base damage for the projectile)

 

[Razor_Typhoon]

Can I state a change on a item's drop-rate or doesn't it count as a balance change?

 

[ppowersteef]

Also, why can't we see the Attack Speed of Whips? I mean, the stat that says stuff like "Very fast speed", "Insanely fast speed" and so on. It would be nice for players who stack Melee Speed as Summoners. (Like me in my current "Whips Only" playthrough.)

The same is true for all weapons.

It's likely that you don't see the attack speed stat because technically the stat works in reverse: The less UseTime a weapon has, the faster it swings. And that can be confusing for some players to understand correctly.

It could be argued that it could have a few more between "fast speed", "very fast speed" and "insanely fast speed" (which most of the later weapons are), of have a "attack per second" idea, but that's more of a feature suggestion than a balance suggestion.

 

[ShinyLine]

The same is true for all weapons.

It's likely that you don't see the attack speed stat because technically the stat works in reverse: The less UseTime a weapon has, the faster it swings. And that can be confusing for some players to understand correctly.

It could be argued that it could have a few more between "fast speed", "very fast speed" and "insanely fast speed" (which most of the later weapons are), of have a "attack per second" idea, but that's more of a feature suggestion than a balance suggestion.

No, I understand that, I'm just talking about the tooltip that says so. Most Whips have "Average speed", like every other Weapon, but Whips don't have that tooltip.

The Snapthorn, for example, could be shown like this:

21 summon damage
Average speed
Very weak knockback
6 summon tag damage
Your summons will focus struck enemies
Strike enemies to gain whip attack speed

"Average speed" increasing to "Fast speed" and beyond when using the Obsidian Armor and the Feral Claws and/or their upgrades.

TL;DR: I just want the speed tooltip on Whips.

 

[Cave wizard]

Shimmer is a massive QoL improvement, and greatly improves the game. I know that you want it to be a secret thing, but it's so useful that I actually see that as a waste. I brought over a shimmer bucket in one of my new worlds, and it was great to have. Slimes or crates giving you a bunch of platinum, but not enough to be useful, when you have gold as your ore? Throw them in and suddenly it was a boon rather than a shrug. Want ore staves or hooks while they're still useful but don't want to AFK for gemcorns to grow (and they'll still give you zero gems and maybe another gemcorn, you really should buff the drop rates)? Gem critters help, and so do gem conversions even if they're only downgrades, since having 8 amethysts is better than having five of every gem. Not to mention that the ore conversion lets you actually get the metals that you need for the staff, since you have a 99% chance of getting the ores that don't correspond to the gem you actually found enough of. Five pairs of mining pants but not a single shirt? Shimmer fixes that. Skeleton merchant's alternative look that is slightly less camouflaged in all the darkness? Shimmer. What I'm saying is, shimmer fixes a lot of early game problems, to the point of probably being the most useful when you aren't likely to have it.

It feels like some of the shimmer transmutations were done specifically to fix early game problems, instead of for example making the sapphire staff use either silver or tungsten, but the ones that need it the most won't even know that shimmer exists and if they do they won't know how to take advantage of it without using the wiki since all the recipes are secret. And so is the fact that shimmer transmutations are a thing at all, for that matter - if I hadn't heard of it I would have assumed it was some kind of new hazard after my first dip. Joe Newbie will still be scratching his head wondering where this gold bar thing is so that he can make that ruby staff and finally be a wizard.

Actually, looking at the shimmer list as I was typing this, I realized that it doesn't swap between two ores of the same tier, but rather downgrades the ore which in some cases keeps it in the same tier. That's a bit disappointing. You know what else is disappointing? That the shimmered princess is the second best NPC, but the regular princess is the best NPC so I can't have both. Too bad.

Anyway, to get back on track, shimmer is a good idea and I think it would be even better if it wasn't a secret. When I was reading the early hotfix patch notes and saw that you repeatedly kept nerfing transmutations, I was worried that you were going to nerf it into uselessness, but that seems to have stopped. Thanks for that. Game developers have a tendency to knee jerk nerf things into the ground when they realize that they're actually useful, so I'm happy to see that zombie arm into whoopie cushion isn't the only remaining transmutation.