Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

[ShinyLine]

Have you tried Phantom Phoenix? I've found it to outperform just about everything, and it's pre-Plantera.

Yeah, but it is already outperformed by the Megashark (w/Crystal Bullets) and the new Flamethrower, both of which you get before the Phantom Phoenix.

 

[Flubman]

I know you're against getting rid of the Mining set's set bonus. How overpowered would it be to move the Mining set's set bonus to the helmet and make the set bonus enemy spawn reduction instead?

 

[ShinyLine]

I know you're against getting rid of the Mining set's set bonus. How overpowered would it be to move the Mining set's set bonus to the helmet and make the set bonus enemy spawn reduction instead?

Considering you can get the Mining Helmet in less than 10 minutes of starting a world... yeah, it's easy to see why they are against it. Maybe the enemy spawn reduction could be added alongside the +10% Mining Speed in the Set Bonus.

 

[mathbrush]

Yeah, but it is already outperformed by the Megashark (w/Crystal Bullets) and the new Flamethrower, both of which you get before the Phantom Phoenix.

The flamethrower is great, that's true, but they didn't really change megashark or phantom phoenix in this update (except to buff phantom phoenix), and in the tests people were doing before this update, phantom phoenix was outperforming megashark vs twins, plantera, etc:

A LARGE AMOUNT of early Hardmode weapons tested against Expert Twins
PC - A lot of weapons tested against Plantera & More
An INNUMERABLE amount of weapons tested against Golem

 

[ShinyLine]

The flamethrower is great, that's true, but they didn't really change megashark or phantom phoenix in this update (except to buff phantom phoenix), and in the tests people were doing before this update, phantom phoenix was outperforming megashark vs twins, plantera, etc:

A LARGE AMOUNT of early Hardmode weapons tested against Expert Twins
PC - A lot of weapons tested against Plantera & More
An INNUMERABLE amount of weapons tested against Golem

Remember that the three Magic Quivers were heavily nerfed, they used to multiply Arrow Damage and stacked WAY too much before v1.4.4, and with that out of the way, all Hardmode Bows and Repeaters were indirectly nerfed, including the Phantom Phoenix. People need to do this kind of tests again, and atleast with mine, it was behind the Weapons I've mentioned.

I'm not talking about the Megashark getting buffed, but the actual Arrow damage output getting nerfed because of the nerf to the Magic Quivers, which were the ones that allowed them to surpass Guns.

I'll try to do a fully detailed test myself about these Weapons, but it'll take me some time.

 

[mathbrush]

Hmm that actually makes a lot of sense. It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out. I look forward to anything you post, I'm always really interested in comparisons and numbers like this, and it's fun to see things rise up and down in the rankings.

 

[Dreadnautilus5000🌳]

The truth is that I was in the middle of a Ranger playthrough (since v1.4.4, I was playing with every Class), and I still had the assumption that Bows and Repeaters could compete with Guns Pre-Plantera.

Even when stacking all three Magic Quivers and using Cursed Arrows, not even the Titanium Repeater could compete with something like the Onyx Blaster with Crystal Bullets. I should have tested Holy Arrows, and I will.

Yeah, I also saw that stacking Cursed Flames + Frostbite + (not yet) Hellfire as Ranger wouldn't be as strong as I was thinking.

At this point I'm thinking about a rework to the Magic Quivers themselves, because all Pre-Plantera Bows and Repeaters are inferior to Guns (not counting Daedalus Stormbow and, obviously, Tsunami); maybe they could give them the same increased-over-time fire rate mechanic as the Phantasm, without stacking it while using the variants. This maybe would need to remove the +10% increased Arrow Damage on the three Accessories. (Along with the proposed Hellfire buff to the Molten Quiver, maybe the Stalker's Quiver could still have the Putrid Scent's +5% bonuses but only applied to Arrow Damage and Arrow Critical Strike Chance.)

Out of curiosity, how are you determining that the arrows weapons are worse than guns? Are you doing direct DPS tests or just using them and basing it off how easily they handle different things?

 

[HammerHoovy🌳]

Gummy Worm is a bit too luck dependent to get. I would suggest adding Can Of Worms to the Wooden Crate drops to make Gold Worms easier to obtain.

 

[Night565]

It seems the bees from the stinger necklace trigger immunity frames. Its not a huge issue but its become noticeable with the improved hornet fire rate from the hive pack (it can be a dps loss to get hit and spawn the bees). Given that rapid fire, low dmg attacks benefit most from armor penetration and that the stinger neck gives armor penetration, yet can interfere by causing immunity frames seems a bit odd and would benefit from a change in my opinion.

 

[AidanMariocraze]

Gummy Worm is a bit too luck dependent to get. I would suggest adding Can Of Worms to the Wooden Crate drops to make Gold Worms easier to obtain.

And people would dip those into Shimmer and turn them into herb bags ^^;

But yeah Can of worms being possible loot from Wooden crates sounds nice

 

[Flubman]

Considering you can get the Mining Helmet in less than 10 minutes of starting a world... yeah, it's easy to see why they are against it. Maybe the enemy spawn reduction could be added alongside the +10% Mining Speed in the Set Bonus.

Mining speed at the start of the game is notoriously slow, so easy access to a mining speed buff would help with that.

 

[HammerHoovy🌳]

And people would dip those into Shimmer and turn them into herb bags ^^;

But yeah Can of worms being possible loot from Wooden crates sounds nice

Herbs are very easy to get in large quantities when you have Dryad.

 

[ShinyLine]

Out of curiosity, how are you determining that the arrows weapons are worse than guns? Are you doing direct DPS tests or just using them and basing it off how easily they handle different things?

DPS tests. The Clockwork Assault Rifle, Onyx Blaster and Megashark all were doing atleast 300-500 more DPS than the Titanium Repeater, Hallowed Repeater and Phantom Phoenix respectively EVEN with the three Magic Quivers and the Ranger Emblem. (With the Guns, I only used the Ranger Emblem.)

I know I should try kill times and crowd control tests with different Arrows Vs. Bullets, but I'm pretty sure the former will be won by Guns with Crystal Bullets.

Gummy Worm is a bit too luck dependent to get. I would suggest adding Can Of Worms to the Wooden Crate drops to make Gold Worms easier to obtain.

You'll have to say the same thing for the Galaxy Pearl.

Mining speed at the start of the game is notoriously slow, so easy access to a mining speed buff would help with that.

It's not like you can't get atleast some Mining Potions from surface chests and some Tier 1 Foods from trees early, which greatly helps to atleast get a better Pickaxe (Silver+) before you run out of them. After all, the light from the actual Mining Helmet is much more useful in the Early-Game than just +10% Mining Speed if you still have something like the Copper Pickaxe.

 

[Flubman]

It's not like you can't get atleast some Mining Potions from surface chests and some Tier 1 Foods from trees early, which greatly helps to atleast get a better Pickaxe (Silver+) before you run out of them. After all, the light from the actual Mining Helmet is much more useful in the Early-Game than just +10% Mining Speed if you still have something like the Copper Pickaxe.

Who said I wanted to get rid of the light?

 

[ShinyLine]

Who said I wanted to get rid of the light?

I didn't said that, I just said that the light itself is more useful. I know it would be possible for the Helmet to give both.

 

[Flubman]

Someone beat Master Mode Plantera using only NE:

Equipment used (apparently, all Menacing):

I know that NE is supposed to be the strongest PHM weapon, but I don't think it should be strong enough to beat the Master Mode version of one of HM's biggest walls in only 3-4 tries (uploader's claim).

Also, I think by "another tries," they meant "testing with other weapons."

I have no idea on how exactly to balance this weapon, but you know who to ask.

 

[Mille Marteaux]

I have no idea if this is intended behavior or not, but Bottled Honey is.. very interesting now? Using it as a potion gives you the Honey buff for 15 seconds and puts you on cooldown.

However, it seems to be activated with the Quick Buff key, and it doesn't heal you nor put you on Potion Sickness... just giving you 15 seconds of Honey without having to dip into a honey pit, but only if you aren't currently dealing with Potion Sickness.

If this was intentional, it's a very fun and interesting design choice. If this was unintentional, then.. I can't tell if it should stay or not, but it's still interesting enough to keep, probably...?

 

[scientistB]

I have no idea if this is intended behavior or not, but Bottled Honey is.. very interesting now? Using it as a potion gives you the Honey buff for 15 seconds and puts you on cooldown.

However, it seems to be activated with the Quick Buff key, and it doesn't heal you nor put you on Potion Sickness... just giving you 15 seconds of Honey without having to dip into a honey pit, but only if you aren't currently dealing with Potion Sickness.

If this was intentional, it's a very fun and interesting design choice. If this was unintentional, then.. I can't tell if it should stay or not, but it's still interesting enough to keep, probably...?

I actually asked about this in the bug reports thread because I was unsure if that's intentional as well. But either way, I think it's a cool feature so I'd want it to stay

 

[ppowersteef]

Someone beat Master Mode Plantera using only NE:

Equipment used (apparently, all Menacing):
View attachment 390250


I know that NE is supposed to be the strongest PHM weapon, but I don't think it should be strong enough to beat the Master Mode version of one of HM's biggest walls in only 3-4 tries (uploader's claim).

View attachment 390251

Also, I think by "another tries," they meant "testing with other weapons."

I have no idea on how exactly to balance this weapon, but you know who to ask.

There's also someone out there who have beaten the game with a Copper Shortsword, guess that may need to be nerved as well.

I don't think there can be much done to it unless you want to nerf it's reach, in it's current form, it is a very safe weapon to use with it's wide reach, fast speed and knockback, and this is also a very 'glass cannon' build too to make up for it's damage loss.

Would a decrease in damage, reach and knockback still make the night's edge impossible against Plantera? Probably not, it may just take longer, but there probably also are better weapons to use against too.

 

[Flubman]

There's also someone out there who have beaten the game with a Copper Shortsword, guess that may need to be nerved as well.

I don't think there can be much done to it unless you want to nerf it's reach, in it's current form, it is a very safe weapon to use with it's wide reach, fast speed and knockback, and this is also a very 'glass cannon' build too to make up for it's damage loss.

Would a decrease in damage, reach and knockback still make the night's edge impossible against Plantera? Probably not, it may just take longer, but there probably also are better weapons to use against too.

Perhaps I was having a kneejerk reaction. Sorry about that.