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Let's talk about "Expert" Mode...

DJFlare84

Mechanic
"Of COURSE it's hard, stupid. It's Expert Mode. It was made specifically to challenge people who wanted a new challenge. You shouldn't be playing it unless you WANT more difficulty. That's the whole reason to play it."

This is the rallying cry of Terraria elitists everywhere. Anywhere there's a complaint that Expert Mode is too hard or Expert Mode needs to be toned down a bit, you'll hear it.

And it is fundamentally flawed.

This is a formal request to everyone to stop repeating this dumb argument. It simply isn't true no matter how many times you repeat it. Expert Mode may have been INTENDED for hardcore gamers, and it certainly caters to their masochistic desires, but the execution defeats this purpose.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. AN OPTIONAL CHALLENGE SHOULD HAVE NO INCENTIVE BEYOND THE ADDITIONAL CHALLENGE.

That said, Expert Mode defeats this argument by enticing all players of all skill levels to let it repeatedly murder them in exchange for the chance at new, rare rewards that can ONLY be obtained in Expert Mode.

For a completionist, this is tantamount to torture.

Do you want a Shield of Cthulhu? Do you want a Suspicious Looking Tentacle? Do you want a whole sixth goddamn accessory slot to make your wildest accessory combination dreams come true?

You better not be playing on that prissy little princess NORMAL setting, then! C'mon, don't be a wuss!

...

I'm not saying Expert Mode is too hard. It's great that ReLogic stepped up and offered a greater challenge to those who were seeking it.

But now people who DON'T want such a brutal challenge are still feeling "forced" to play anyway, because they are LEGITIMATELY MISSING OUT on a large chunk of new content otherwise.

I'm not asking you to admit Expert Mode is too hard. I'm just asking you to stop pretending it's just for you. The world doesn't revolve around you, and neither does Expert Mode.

~TL;DR VERSION~


I just want people to stop having this attitude that only hardcore gamers should even be bothering to play Expert Mode, because that's what all this "git gud" talk sounds like. It sounds like "Expert Mode is only for people who want a challenge. You don't want that, so why are you here?".

Uh, the loot. They're here for the loot.
 
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Quenton

Terrarian
They're missing out on a large chunk of content...? lol
they're missing out on a shield that pretty much gets tossed away once in hardmode, a scarf that's really not that amazing in practice (unless you tie it together with a bunch of other tank stuff and your purpose is to be a tank in multiplayer), a minecart that makes you go the fastest (apart from teleporting of course), a :red:ty accessory that confuses enemies that hit you, a spore sack that's cool for a while until you realize it's really just another accessory for afk farms (at least that's how I saw it), and an eyeball that's awarded way too late in the game to matter, as well as a gravity globe (i hate it) and a mount. The 6th accessory too, I guess.
Really, that's not a lot of things compared to what's already in the game. It's not at all a "large chunk" as you so call it.
And if I can get through the end of expert mode, defeating moon lord and all, then so can other people. Learn to dodge, etc etc. Stop whining. Expert mode doesn't add absolute necessities to the game that are a must-have for everyone.
 

DJFlare84

Mechanic
They're missing out on a large chunk of content...? lol
they're missing out on a shield that pretty much gets tossed away once in hardmode
Shield of Cthulhu is actually a damn GOOD earlygame accessory. You must not like dodging very much or you'd know that. lol

a scarf that's really not that amazing in practice (unless you tie it together with a bunch of other tank stuff and your purpose is to be a tank in multiplayer), a minecart that makes you go the fastest (apart from teleporting of course), a :red:ty accessory that confuses enemies that hit you, a spore sack that's cool for a while until you realize it's really just another accessory for afk farms (at least that's how I saw it), and an eyeball that's awarded way too late in the game to matter, as well as a gravity globe (i hate it) and a mount.
Those I'll give ya. Those are pretty bleh.

The 6th accessory too, I guess.
You GUESS? You don't think the Demon Heart is pretty much all that and a bag of chips?

Really, that's not a lot of things compared to what's already in the game. It's not at all a "large chunk" as you so call it.
Not a lot in numeration but BIG in scope.
And if I can get through the end of expert mode, defeating moon lord and all, then so can other people. Learn to dodge
Learn to read. Never complained that expert mode was too hard, so I have no idea why you're trying to give me some :red:ty vague advice on how to beat it.

Stop whining.
You first.

Expert mode doesn't add absolute necessities to the game that are a must-have for everyone.
That's a matter of opinion, my friend. For me, a dash option for quick turn-arounds can't come soon ENOUGH. It's part of that whole "Dodging" thing you seem to find important at times and unimportant at others.
 
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Quenton

Terrarian
You have a grappling hook that lets you make quick turn arounds. That's mainly what I use in place of dashing accessories. Personally I hate dashing accessories because they always :red: me over when I'm trying to make precise movements with my character, and wind up flying off the platform I was building on (damn solar flare armor)
And yeah, I made the 6th accessory slot seem less cool than it was. The 6th accessory slot is actually really awesome, but it's not at all a requirement. It just helps with the challenge of things being harder in expert, bosses have more health so you have an extra accessory slot to help deal with that a bit better, etc etc.
 

DJFlare84

Mechanic
You have a grappling hook that lets you make quick turn arounds. That's mainly what I use in place of dashing accessories. Personally I hate dashing accessories because they always :red: me over when I'm trying to make precise movements with my character, and wind up flying off the platform I was building on (damn solar flare armor)
And yeah, I made the 6th accessory slot seem less cool than it was. The 6th accessory slot is actually really awesome, but it's not at all a requirement. It just helps with the challenge of things being harder in expert, bosses have more health so you have an extra accessory slot to help deal with that a bit better, etc etc.
Really? I always love the dash option. Master Ninja Gear is a must-have in my endgame accessory loadout. Always.

Admittedly yeah, you can also do it with a grappling hook, but I really do freakin' like the shield. Especially since it smashes people in the FACE.

It's an awfully poor bit of damage but it's still a lot of fun to just repeatedly headbutt Zombies to death.

Terraria - $9.99 on Steam
Shoulder-Ramming a Zombie to death - Priceless.
 

Auraza

Terrarian
AN OPTIONAL CHALLENGE SHOULD HAVE NO INCENTIVE BEYOND THE ADDITIONAL CHALLENGE.
there would be no point in taking a larger challenge if there were no rewards for it.

if optional challenges do not demand compensation, we should remove the loot tables from eye of cthulhu, brain of cthulhu, eater of worlds, queen bee, pumpkin moon, frost moon, and duke fishron. these bosses are not required for progression, as you can reach the final boss without defeating them.

the goblin army, pirate invasion, and martian invasions are also not necessary to the game's progression.

The world doesn't revolve around you, and neither does Expert Mode.
and neither of those revolve around you. there is no reason to change the game's difficulty simply because it does not coincide with what you believe it should be.
 

DJFlare84

Mechanic
there would be no point in taking a larger challenge if there were no rewards for it.
... lol

if optional challenges do not demand compensation, we should remove the loot tables from eye of cthulhu, brain of cthulhu, eater of worlds, queen bee, pumpkin moon, frost moon, and duke fishron. these bosses are not required for progression, as you can reach the final boss without defeating them.

the goblin army, pirate invasion, and martian invasions are also not necessary to the game's progression.
They're not optional by the very virtue of the fact that they have new loot for you to get. The whole game revolves around fighting enemies and getting loot. That is literally the point of the game.

... I... I dunno what to tell you if you don't get that.

and neither of those revolve around you. there is no reason to change the game's difficulty simply because it does not coincide with what you believe it should be.
How many of you people are completely skimming my message?

Raise your hands. One? Two? Do I see a third back the-GODDAMMIT LEANORD I TOLD YOU NOBODY CARES. NOBODY CARES, OKAY!? PUT YOUR F***ING HAND DOWN I SWEAR TO GOD...

Yeah I never asked anyone to lower the difficulty on Expert Mode.

Ever.

Anywhere.

Bye.
 

Auraza

Terrarian
They're not optional by the very virtue of the fact that they have new loot for you to get. The whole game revolves around fighting enemies and getting loot. That is literally the point of the game.

... I... I dunno what to tell you if you don't get that.
and expert mode is not optional by the very virtue of the fact that it has new loot for you to get. the whole game revolves around fighting enemies and getting loot. that is literally the entire point of the game.

How many of you people are completely skimming my message?

Raise your hands. One? Two? Do I see a third back the-GODDAMMIT LEANORD I TOLD YOU NOBODY CARES. NOBODY CARES, OKAY!? PUT YOUR F***ING HAND DOWN I SWEAR TO GOD...

Yeah I never asked anyone to lower the difficulty on Expert Mode.

Ever.

Anywhere.

Bye.
apologies, i had interpreted your post as something else.

i will rephrase:

the world does not revolve around you. you should not demand that, since some players cannot beat it, expert mode should no longer have tangible rewards, based entirely on the premise that those players who cannot beat it will not be rewarded for beating it.
 

Quenton

Terrarian
I guess the main point people on the opposing side are trying to argue, even though their words may not explicitly state so, is that expert mode isn't required for the game. People on the opposite side say it is, but it all comes down to opinion. Let's try to keep this thread civil at least, slander doesn't make anybody feel good.
 

DJFlare84

Mechanic
and expert mode is not optional by the very virtue of the fact that it has new loot for you to get. the whole game revolves around fighting enemies and getting loot. that is literally the entire point of the game.
It's sad that you're being sarcastic because that's exactly correct.

We can tell it wasn't INTENDED that way, but that's how it is.



apologies, i had interpreted your post as something else.

i will rephrase:

the world does not revolve around you. you should not demand that, since some players cannot beat it, expert mode should no longer have tangible rewards, based entirely on the premise that those players who cannot beat it will not be rewarded for beating it.
Now I didn't say that either.

But, hey! At least you're READING now. Now you just need to work on the whole "understanding" thing.

What I'm -ACTUALLY- trying to achieve here is to create understanding.

I want "hardcore gamers" to understand that people "complaining" about how difficult Expert Mode is are not only entitled to their complaints, but are justified in doing so.

You may not find the extra little bits in Expert Mode to be important, but the importance of the extra content is entirely a matter of opinion, meaning if the unskilled completionist thinks it's unfair, it is.

I guess the main point people on the opposing side are trying to argue, even though their words may not explicitly state so, is that expert mode isn't required for the game. People on the opposite side say it is, but it all comes down to opinion. Let's try to keep this thread civil at least, slander doesn't make anybody feel good.
Yes, thank you. That is EXACTLY my point.

Unfortunately, although Auraza was being sarcastic when she said it, the only real way to rectify this and clear up the arguing on both sides would indeed be to remove the extra rewards from expert mode (or, preferrably, make them available in normal mode as well).
 

Quenton

Terrarian
They're not optional by the very virtue of the fact that they have new loot for you to get. The whole game revolves around fighting enemies and getting loot. That is literally the point of the game.

... I... I dunno what to tell you if you don't get that.
well that's also a matter of opinion too. Personally, I think Terraria is about getting loot and progressing, but I also think it's about creativity and making buildings cool creations. There's people who spend their entire time in Terraria just building things, and if they progress through the game it's only to make the process of building things a bit easier. Like getting a flying mount, architect gizmo pack, etc etc.
 

DJFlare84

Mechanic
well that's also a matter of opinion too. Personally, I think Terraria is about getting loot and progressing, but I also think it's about creativity and making buildings. There's people who spend their entire time in Terraria just building things, and if they progress through the game it's only to make the process of building things a bit easier. Like getting a flying mount, architect gizmo pack, etc etc.
Oh, no question. I love building in Terraria too, especially once you get a Mechanic and can mess around with stuff like wires and actuators.

Snag a few traps from the temple after Hardmode...

But yeah, people pretending that obtaining loot isn't important... and then saying they deserve to get new loot when they do tough things.

I just can't help but feel like there's a contradiction in there somewhere.

It basically translates to "I don't want you peasant filth to get your dirty mitts on stuff only -I- deserve because I'm better than you. I will argue up and down to keep you away from my privilege."
 

Auraza

Terrarian
It's sad that you're being sarcastic because that's exactly correct.

We can tell it wasn't INTENDED that way, but that's how it is.
the point is that optional challenges should always have incentive for doing them, for the purpose of encouraging people to take those challenges.

none of the expert-exclusive items are necessary. you can play through either mode without them. if you enjoy collecting things, trading for those items would be a viable way to acquire them. there are plenty of people who would be more than happy to trade those items to you.

Now I didn't say that either.
it was an implication in these lines:

Do you want a Shield of Cthulhu? Do you want a Suspicious Looking Tentacle? Do you want a whole sixth goddamn accessory slot to make your wildest accessory combination dreams come true?

You better not be playing on that prissy little princess NORMAL setting, then! C'mon, don't be a wuss!
But now people who DON'T want such a brutal challenge are still feeling "forced" to play anyway, because they are LEGITIMATELY MISSING OUT on a large chunk of new content otherwise.
these quotes are attempting to explain that it is unfair for expert mode to have exclusive rewards because it means that players lacking the skill are missing out.

furthermore:

AN OPTIONAL CHALLENGE SHOULD HAVE NO INCENTIVE BEYOND THE ADDITIONAL CHALLENGE.
this quote is a flat out suggestion that expert mode rewards should not be exclusive to expert mode, thereby making them not expert mode rewards and meaning expert mode will have no tangible rewards.





I want "hardcore gamers" to understand that people "complaining" about how difficult Expert Mode are not only entitled to their complaints, but are justified in doing so.

You may not find the extra little bits in Expert Mode to be important, but the importance of the extra content is entirely a matter of opinion, meaning if the unskilled completionist thinks it's unfair, it is.
the importance of the extra content is, in fact, a matter of opinion. you are correct about that.

your argument is that, since it is a matter of opinion, you can decide that it is unfair and it will therefore be unfair.

what you are ignoring is that the same logic can be applied in reverse. since it is a matter of opinion, and my opinion is that it is fair, it is. this is why that is not an acceptable standpoint to argue from.



lastly, i would like to request that we both stop talking down to each other, because it is not conducive to any form of discussion. i will start by apologizing for anything i said that was intended to be hurtful or otherwise disrespectful.
 

Squishydew

Terrarian
The only useful things are easily gotten, just play through on softcore and then switch to expert mode to crush the Worm for his scarf, wall of flesh for the extra slot, and the Primes for the minecart are an absolute joke with a Vortex repeater + chlorophyte bullets which you can get in normal mode.

This thread feels pointless.
 

DJFlare84

Mechanic
the point is that optional challenges should always have incentive for doing them, for the purpose of encouraging people to take those challenges.

none of the expert-exclusive items are necessary. you can play through either mode without them. if you enjoy collecting things, trading for those items would be a viable way to acquire them. there are plenty of people who would be more than happy to trade those items to you.
For a completionist, expert-exclusive items ARE necessary. As you said later in your post, it's a matter of opinion.


this quote is a flat out suggestion that expert mode rewards should not be exclusive to expert mode, thereby making them not expert mode rewards and meaning expert mode will have no tangible rewards.
That is EXACTLY what that suggestion means.

I know a lot of games do things like that. I don't agree with it. I never did. I never will.

I absolutely mean it when I say that extra difficulty modes should only be for people ACTUALLY only seeking a challenge. If you actually need more incentive to play them other than "I want to test myself", then you're not actually a hardcore gamer seeking a greater challenge. You're a completionist seeking better loot and willing to accept greater challenges to get them.

the importance of the extra content is, in fact, a matter of opinion. you are correct about that.

your argument is that, since it is a matter of opinion, you can decide that it is unfair and it will therefore be unfair.

what you are ignoring is that the same logic can be applied in reverse. since it is a matter of opinion, and my opinion is that it is fair, it is. this is why that is not an acceptable standpoint to argue from.
What you failed to understand is that my entire purpose here is to tell people it's not fair to tell others their opinion is not valid and should be ignored.

I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about something. I'm trying to tell you to not be a jerkass elitist and belittle the opinions of others simply because their gaming skill is not on par with your own. It's a terrible habit, like smoking.

All I ask is for people to stop saying "git gud". It's not helpful, it's not constructive, it's incredibly insulting and it really just paints one as an elitist snob that noooobody wants to be around.

lastly, i would like to request that we both stop talking down to each other, because it is not conducive to any form of discussion. i will start by apologizing for anything i said that was intended to be hurtful or otherwise disrespectful.
Apology accepted, and terms agreed-to.
 
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Auraza

Terrarian
For a completionist, expert-exclusive items ARE necessary. As you said later in your post, it's a matter of opinion.
and there are many ways to acquire those items without touching expert mode. trading is one of them.

That is EXACTLY what that suggestion means.

I know a lot of games do things like that. I don't agree with it. I never did. I never will.

I absolutely mean it when I say that extra difficulty modes should only be for people ACTUALLY only seeking a challenge. If you actually need more incentive to play them other than "I want to test myself", then you're not actually a hardcore gamer seeking a greater challenge. You're a completionist seeking better loot and willing to accept greater challenges to get them.
i do not classify myself as hardcore in any way. i play games for something to do in my spare time. the only reason i play on expert mode after reaching endgame on it is because bosses drop developer vanity in that mode, and i enjoy having new outfits.

additional challenge is entertaining to me, but i do feel that it would be unjust to not reward players who intentionally take this challenge. it is the same mentality used in ... contests, for example. people enter those contests for prizes. there are some types of contests that thrive mostly on competition (tournaments are a prime example), but expert mode is not a competitive challenge. players do not compete against each other, but against the game. there are no rankings, there is no time limit, it is just additional difficulty. few people would be interested in a competitive challenge that does not come with competition. this is why rewards are important - if we give a competitive challenge without anyone to compete against, players will engage in even more elitism than if the purpose of expert mode is the rewards.

What you failed to understand is that my entire purpose here is to tell people it's not fair to tell others their opinion is not valid and should be ignored.

I'm not trying to tell you how you should feel about something. I'm trying to tell you to not be a jerkass elitist and belittle the opinions of others simply because their gaming skill is not on par with your own. It's a terrible habit, like smoking.
i have never been an elitist, and i have never belittled someones' opinion simply because our skill levels are different. my original concern was with your suggestion, which i do not think would fix anything.

after that, i was mostly concerned with the tone of your replies. i do not admire hostility, and i tend to reply to it with as much hostility as i felt was received. it is a bad habit of mine, and i apologize that i did not realize it as quickly as i should have. that being said, it does not justify either of us being hostile. that is why i apologized.
 

Quenton

Terrarian
Elitism sucks for the receiving end and it always has, but I don't think anybody's really saying that people who can't make it through expert mode or can't make it through expert mode are sissy little :red:es who can't even, and if there are people saying those things then they're really just a jerk and it's as simple as that, but I can understand (and say it myself) when people say things along the lines of "git gud" (git gud is honestly more of a sarcastic way of telling somebody to get better), because it gets incredibly annoying when you can do something yourself and just see hundreds of complaints from people who can't and are :red:ing because it's too hard etc etc. That's why I first said, "If I can do it, so can other people." It's not really a form of elitism because I'm not saying people who suck should feel bad and aren't worthy of the awesome things that me and my experience can acquire, I'm mostly just saying that if you're having a problem with the greater difficulty, practice a bit more and you won't have a problem with it.
I died probably about 7 times to Duke Fishron in expert before I finally managed to kill him, while I didn't explicitly manage to die to the EoC I did have to mirror and heal up at the nurse 4 times before I killed him, I didn't have any problems with the mech bosses because daedalus stormbow+holy arrows=lmao, the eater of worlds ripped my face apart before I knew the new mechanic it had (also I just wanted a damn shadow orb because I was sick of the gold mining helmet taking away from a decent head slot item), and the wall of flesh took me about 4 tries before killing it as well. I went through the annoyance of dying a bunch, but I didn't go and complain on the forums that expert mode was too hard, I just kept at it, looking at other people's methods occasionally too, and made it to the end-game. When I see so many people complain that expert is too hard, I just get annoyed and instead of typing a 10 page 12 point font new times roman essay about addressing their annoyances and calming their agitation I just boil it all down to, "If I can do it, so can you."

no tl;dr because idk how to tl;dr that
 

DJFlare84

Mechanic
additional challenge is entertaining to me, but i do feel that it would be unjust to not reward players who intentionally take this challenge.
I can understand that. I just don't feel like it's... agreeable.

It would be one thing if the Expert Mode rewards were mere trophies. But they are functioning items and weapons. It's hard to deny that people would feel left out. I certainly felt left out and I did not enjoy slogging through Expert Mode to obtain them at all. In fact, I would go as far as to say the rewards were pitiful compared to what I put up with to get them, which is only further reason to include them in normal mode

(Except the Demon Heart. That item is 10 kinds of amazing).

i do not classify myself as hardcore in any way.

i have never been an elitist, and i have never belittled someones' opinion simply because our skill levels are different. my original concern was with your suggestion, which i do not think would fix anything.
While I disagree on whether or not it would "fix" anything, I want to point out that I didn't (or at least didn't MEAN to) call YOU an elitist or hardcore gamer, specifically.

I was simply stating that my point was directed towards such people. I apologize if it sounded like I was accusing you of anything.

after that, i was mostly concerned with the tone of your replies. i do not admire hostility, and i tend to reply to it with as much hostility as i felt was received. it is a bad habit of mine, and i apologize that i did not realize it as quickly as i should have. that being said, it does not justify either of us being hostile. that is why i apologized.
Admittedly I somehow managed to skim that very last part. I read every single bit of the rest of your post but skimmed the apology (which is literally the last line. If I was reading the whole post anyway, how did I miss that? I blame my ADHD). I do accept it, by the way.
 
If expert mode is too much for you just beat the game in normal mode, get some items and beat the expert bosses with them, lol, what's the problem?
The Demon Heart works only on expert worlds, so it shouldn't really matter.
If someone's not able to beat the Moon Lord or whatever, should he whine about Moon Lord being too strong so he's missing the chunk of content the last boss offers? I don't think so.
It's a challenge, just get good.
 

DJFlare84

Mechanic
Elitism sucks for the receiving end and it always has, but I don't think anybody's really saying that people who can't make it through expert mode or can't make it through expert mode are sissy little :red:es who can't even, and if there are people saying those things then they're really just a jerk and it's as simple as that, but I can understand (and say it myself) when people say things along the lines of "git gud" (git gud is honestly more of a sarcastic way of telling somebody to get better), because it gets incredibly annoying when you can do something yourself and just see hundreds of complaints from people who can't and are :red:ing because it's too hard etc etc. That's why I first said, "If I can do it, so can other people." It's not really a form of elitism because I'm not saying people who suck should feel bad and aren't worthy of the awesome things that me and my experience can acquire, I'm mostly just saying that if you're having a problem with the greater difficulty, practice a bit more and you won't have a problem with it.
I died probably about 7 times to Duke Fishron in expert before I finally managed to kill him, while I didn't explicitly manage to die to the EoC I did have to mirror and heal up at the nurse 4 times before I killed him, I didn't have any problems with the mech bosses because daedalus stormbow+holy arrows=lmao, the eater of worlds ripped my face apart before I knew the new mechanic it had (also I just wanted a damn shadow orb because I was sick of the gold mining helmet taking away from a decent head slot item), and the wall of flesh took me about 4 tries before killing it as well. I went through the annoyance of dying a bunch, but I didn't go and complain on the forums that expert mode was too hard, I just kept at it, looking at other people's methods occasionally too, and made it to the end-game. When I see so many people complain that expert is too hard, I just get annoyed and instead of typing a 10 page 12 point font new times roman essay about addressing their annoyances and calming their agitation I just boil it all down to, "If I can do it, so can you."

no tl;dr because idk how to tl;dr that
Naw it's okay.

I understand that, at times, there is just nothing you can do but tell someone that the game is not really as hard as they think it is. But I think we can all unanimously agree that Expert Mode is not the place for that. It was designed to be buttrapingly brutally hard. You cannot deny that it is buttrapingly, brutally hard. It was designed to be exactly that.

And I'm definitely (again, newcomers, please read), not saying that Expert Mode is TOO hard and that it should be toned down to make easier.

All I'm saying is that I want those new items. Those are new things I do not have and I want them (Disclaimer: I already have them. I've beaten Expert Mode, thank you). Everyone does. Why wouldn't you?

New items are locked away in extra brutally hard content. People are going to complain that maybe it's just way too much hassle to go through for a shield that lets you headbutt zombies into oblivion after 5 hits or so. They're going to be justified saying that.

Expert Mode was touted as that extra bit of challenge for people who wanted it. People who wanted the challenge, not extra cool loot, because everyone who plays Terraria ALREADY wants extra cool loot.

Then they put extra cool loot in it anyway, incentivising people who don't have the skill or patience for it.

To these people, expert mode is "I'll give you 20 dollars if you let me whack your thumb with a sledgehammer". On the one hand, that's a cool twenny bucks.

On the other hand... that's a fuggin' sledgehammer.

AlL I ask is that we all agree that Expert Mode is NOT merely just for those seeking a challenge. The existence of loot is also an incentive. Please stop pretending otherwise, people, and stop pretending that people who aren't seeking a challenge have no cause to be playing it.
 
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