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Let's talk about "Expert" Mode...

Nörgler

Terrarian
This all comes down to the ideological question of equal end results vs. equal opportunities (or communism vs. not). I prefer the latter.
 

Auraza

Terrarian
I can understand that. I just don't feel like it's... agreeable.

It would be one thing if the Expert Mode rewards were mere trophies. But they are functioning items and weapons. It's hard to deny that people would feel left out. I certainly felt left out and I did not enjoy slogging through Expert Mode to obtain them at all. In fact, I would go as far as to say the rewards were pitiful compared to what I put up with to get them, which is only further reason to include them in normal mode

(Except the Demon Heart. That item is 10 kinds of amazing).
they certainly would feel left out, but simply giving a trophy and calling it compensation would most likely upset more people than it would please. the only expert mode rewards that i really liked were the shield (because i like the tabi a lot) and the scarf (because it is really cute). the gravity globe is sort of entertaining but very underwhelming. the only time i have used it was when my friend and i attempted an entirely upside down playthrough, which was ... interesting.

with that in mind, however, it seems like there is really no way to win - on one hand, the expert mode rewards are very underwhelming, so it would be beneficial to properly scale them to feel like rewards. on the other hand, if the rewards are too good, they become something of a necessity, which means that expert mode is no longer additional difficulty for better rewards but additional difficulty that is required for a playthrough.

i am of the opinion that the rewards, while somewhat underwhelming, are fine as they are now. they are not necessary to progression, are tradeable and usable in normal mode (except for the demon heart), and not having them does not put the player at any real disadvantage. being tradeable and usable in normal mode allows collectors to fully enjoy them, while being not entirely overwhelming (unlike the biome weapons on release) means that players should not feel like they are playing inefficiently when they are not using them.

While I disagree on whether or not it would "fix" anything, I want to point out that I didn't (or at least didn't MEAN to) call YOU an elitist or hardcore gamer, specifically.

I was simply stating that my point was directed towards such people. I apologize if it sounded like I was accusing you of anything.
i did read it that way, but i did not really think it was said in a hostile tone, so i assumed it was just a blanket.

Admittedly I somehow managed to skim that very last part. I read every single bit of the rest of your post but skimmed the apology (which is literally the last line. If I was reading the whole post anyway, how did I miss that? I blame my ADHD). I do accept it, by the way.
this late at night it is easy to misread or skip lines. i do not mind.
 

DJFlare84

Mechanic
they certainly would feel left out, but simply giving a trophy and calling it compensation would most likely upset more people than it would please. the only expert mode rewards that i really liked were the shield (because i like the tabi a lot) and the scarf (because it is really cute). the gravity globe is sort of entertaining but very underwhelming. the only time i have used it was when my friend and i attempted an entirely upside down playthrough, which was ... interesting.

with that in mind, however, it seems like there is really no way to win - on one hand, the expert mode rewards are very underwhelming, so it would be beneficial to properly scale them to feel like rewards. on the other hand, if the rewards are too good, they become something of a necessity, which means that expert mode is no longer additional difficulty for better rewards but additional difficulty that is required for a playthrough.

i am of the opinion that the rewards, while somewhat underwhelming, are fine as they are now. they are not necessary to progression, are tradeable and usable in normal mode (except for the demon heart), and not having them does not put the player at any real disadvantage. being tradeable and usable in normal mode allows collectors to fully enjoy them, while being not entirely overwhelming (unlike the biome weapons on release) means that players should not feel like they are playing inefficiently when they are not using them.
A valid opinion.

To be perfectly honest, though, I am a completionist. I want to collect EVERYTHING. To me, progression is at least taking a CRACK at obtaining all the items. To me, Expert Mode was necessary, even if I was putting my thumb to a sledgehammer.

I just want people to stop having this attitude that only hardcore gamers should even be bothering to play Expert Mode, because that's what all this "git gud" talk sounds like. It sounds like "Expert Mode is only for people who want a challenge. You don't want that, so why are you here?".

Uh, the loot. They're here for the loot.

I can say that. Because I was there for the loot. Did not care at all for the challenge. I wanted a shield. I wanted an eyeball. I wanted a sixth slot.

I beat it, by the way. I didn't like it, but I beat it. I called some friends in to help me. I wouldn't play it again if anyone paid me. THEY wouldn't play it again if anyone paid them.

... or at least that's what I'd like to say, but I've grown so attached to Slot #6 I can never leave this hell again.

Never...
 

Auraza

Terrarian
i can understand taking pride in being able to complete expert mode, but i would say that if someone is going around telling players that they are bad because they cannot beat expert mode, the issue is not with the mode but with the player who is actively being a jerk.
 

waffleyone

Terrarian
This thread is an example of one person's rant that:

"No content, no matter how much, or how important, must ever be gated behind difficulty, ever." [followed by, "Because I'm a completionist and I should get to do everything without being challenged."]

And a bunch of people trying to explain why (s)he's wrong.

"I just want people to stop having this attitude that only hardcore gamers should even be bothering to play Expert Mode, because that's what all this "git gud" talk sounds like."​

As the sort of person that thinks/says "get good", I will insist to you that it means precisely "Anyone can do this, all he/she needs to do is put in a bit of time and effort. You'll get there." That's why it's "git gud" and not "u suck"
 

DJFlare84

Mechanic
i can understand taking pride in being able to complete expert mode, but i would say that if someone is going around telling players that they are bad because they cannot beat expert mode, the issue is not with the mode but with the player who is actively being a jerk.
Yes, exactly.

I'm PROBABLY not the best at relaying my ideas, but this is the point I've been trying to get to.

Don't get me wrong, I really do think Expert Mode is all kinds of bull:red: hard, but at leat I understand that's how it's supposed to be. I went in like a man and I grit my teeth into it and I got all the :red: I wanted.

But my heart goes out to anyone who's havin' trouble with it. It really is a mess and a half. And my heart goes out to them because they get smacktalked like this:

This thread is an example of one person's rant that:

"No content, no matter how much, or how important, must ever be gated behind difficulty, ever." [followed by, "Because I'm a completionist and I should get to do everything without being challenged."]

And a bunch of people trying to explain why (s)he's wrong.

"I just want people to stop having this attitude that only hardcore gamers should even be bothering to play Expert Mode, because that's what all this "git gud" talk sounds like."​

As the sort of person that thinks/says "get good", I will insist to you that it means precisely "Anyone can do this, all he/she needs to do is put in a bit of time and effort. You'll get there." That's why it's "git gud" and not "u suck"
I don't mind if someone thinks you can accomplish something with some additional effort.

I mind whole hella lots when they simply tell you to "git gud" and not actually offer any advice on how to deal with the problem being discussed.

That's the kind of thing where "git gud" totally DOES mean "u suk". You imply the person is not even worthy of the minuscule amount of attention it would take for you to actively discuss the problem with them. It's like you think there's no point in helping them. That's a terrible, lackluster attitude.

I don't want someone to tell me to "git gud". I want someone to give me some honest and useful advice on how to handle the problem being discussed, the way people should in a forum where people gather to exchange ideas, theories and strategies.
 
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waffleyone

Terrarian
I'm sorry but I can't allow you to defend that.
So, not only it is inappropriate to tell someone "improve yourself" without telling them how (God forbid they do the work to figure out how to improve!), but it is so wrong that you cannot allow my opinion, that it is so morally and logically bankrupt that it cannot stand?

Git gud at something besides being a pompous windbag.

Lock this puppie up, mods. Never going to go anywhere.
 

Hie the Badger

The Destroyer
If you are a completionist that should give you an extra incentive to get the incentives of expert mode. Expert mode items are for experts who can step up to the challenge. They are not for normal players. "Get good" is the correct response to this. If you cant get good you don't deserve expert mode loot. I'm playing expert mode and the hardest things so far are typical annoyances in normal mode become more pronounced. And guess what? I'm not even that good. I actually die on expert mode. Does that make me want to nerf all the things? Of course not. It makes me want to get my :red: together and find new ways to give myself an advantage.

This SJW style argumentation you have going is not going to fly here.
 

FlakMaster

The Destroyer
For a completionist, this is tantamount to torture.
I'd rather this game was designed for hardcore players than completionists.

and it certainly caters to their masochistic desires
Revise the definition of masochism.

That's not what the majority of these players want. They want a challenge to be able to conquer through skills and strategy and thus feel pride for that. 'Pain' is a side-product when people get frustrated that they aren't making any progress with a certain part of the game.

Shield of Cthulhu is actually a damn GOOD earlygame accessory. You must not like dodging very much or you'd know that. lol
Uh...actually, it's the opposite of that for me. I don't use it for dodging because it can often be counter-productive. Especially against skeletron, where you could accidentally dash against one of the hands and end up being launched the other way straight into the skull. Tabi is different because it simply ignores enemies.

a scarf that's really not that amazing in practice (unless you tie it together with a bunch of other tank stuff and your purpose is to be a tank in multiplayer),
Worm scarf is much better than most would expect judging from the tooltip. It actually takes away 17% before defence is factored, so the practical percentage reduction can be much higher.

But now people who DON'T want such a brutal challenge are still feeling "forced" to play anyway, because they are LEGITIMATELY MISSING OUT on a large chunk of new content otherwise.
Then go into an Expert Mode world with an end-game character and get the content? There's no argument against this if they aren't seeking a challenge.

From what I've experienced with the new difficulty, it isn't as painfully difficult as some claim it to be. Pre-HM bosses got a massive bump in difficulty, which I definitely appreciate. Otherwise, all the normal mobs are still easy as anything. Dungeon is still a walk in the park, the Goblin Invasion is no different other than stats and hell is also still simple to engage in. The Jungle is a little threatening because of the massive times on those poison debuffs though.

Entering HardMode, it's mostly just severely punishing attacks that the player receives. Illuminant bats for example do over 130 damage. The mechanical bosses received little buffs other than stat boosts. Plantera is just more spammy and punishes you more for being in tight spaces. Golem is no different. Duke Fishron has a neat little 'last stand' ability, but apart from that is still the same. Moon events? Yep, you guessed it, no different.

What's my point? Basically, in Expert Mode, you just need to employ the same tactics that were effective in normal mode in most cases. For experienced players such as myself, doing this made the majority of content feel very 'similar' to playing it before 1.3. If it didn't work in Expert Mode, then it probably didn't work brilliantly in normal mode anyway but it wasn't punishing enough to kill you quickly. The only severely challenging parts of the game is the new stuff, such as the Martian Invasion, Solar Pillars and the Moon lord. But that's because it's new content. It takes time for people to find the right strategies.
 

Jill

Official Terrarian
I'd have no problem with Expert Mode if not for the fact that for me, it represents clearly the key difference between 'difficulty' and 'challenge'.

Expert Mode, with the exception of the bosses (which are the mode's highlight) is NOT more challenging than Normal Mode. The boss AI improvements are very welcome, but the vast majority of the other changes are just big-:red: boosts to mob HP and damage output. This constitutes a cheap boost in difficulty, and I find this renders the mode pretty unfun. Moving through the ground or overland at an absolute crawl in order to deal with standard mob spawns, always (and is it just me or is the spawnrate boosted?) becomes annoying quickly, and also renders the Melee classtype pretty poor without stacking defence, damaging variety. Re-Logic could've done a better job with Expert Mode, but I'm not saying they should've done a better job with Expert Mode, since obviously AI upgrades across the board just takes way too much time as opposed to just going into the code and altering their HP and damage numbers.

There's also some things which are just baffling. You drop 75% gold on death, fine. Mobs can take your gold post-death, okay... but many people have pointed out that mobs can nick your gold and then almost-immediately despawn. They were met with this standard ridicule that that's how Expert Mode is supposed to be - no, that's bull:red:. If mobs are carrying your possessions it's just ridiculous that they not be tagged with an inability to despawn. Sure, keep the challenge of finding them... that seems fair enough. But if you're going to have the 'Mob steal and despawn' so-called mechanic, just make it official and have it delete 75% of your gold on death, at least then that wouldn't be based on blind luck. -_-
 

FlakMaster

The Destroyer
It doesn't make sense if it does. I'd rather ask someone like @W1K than trust the wiki.

I clearly remember lava dropping from 45 damage to 27 with the scarf on. I'm not sure.

Edit: Even if it is simply 17%, that's still quite a large reduction of damage. Maybe it is irrelevant if you're used to mobs doing 20s or whatnot, but it definitely helps when you are used to suffering triple digit figures.
 

DJFlare84

Mechanic
So, not only it is inappropriate to tell someone "improve yourself" without telling them how (God forbid they do the work to figure out how to improve!), but it is so wrong that you cannot allow my opinion, that it is so morally and logically bankrupt that it cannot stand?

Git gud at something besides being a pompous windbag.

Lock this puppie up, mods. Never going to go anywhere.
I'd love to explain how you can be better at posting in a community where ideas are meant to be shared and discussed but I just don't see the point. You're clearly never improving as a human being because human beings are not meant to be social creatures and interact with each other or seek help from each other. If you can't pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and do the work necessary to survive on your own you just don't have any reason to be here.

Good luck with that whole "existing" thing I'll be here laughing when you fail. </git gud>

I'd rather this game was designed for hardcore players than completionists.
I respect that opinion.

Revise the definition of masochism.

That's not what the majority of these players want. They want a challenge to be able to conquer through skills and strategy and thus feel pride for that. 'Pain' is a side-product when people get frustrated that they aren't making any progress with a certain part of the game.
There's really not much "skill" involved in terraria. I find that most of the difficulty simply stems from either not having enough HP or not having enough damage. You don't have enough movement control in Terraria for battles to be based on skill, I personally find, meaning that most of the time you're simply forced to take hits.

The only "dodging" in terraria consists of finding a way to keep the boss-off-screen and then shooting backwards, which is sad.

Uh...actually, it's the opposite of that for me. I don't use it for dodging because it can often be counter-productive. Especially against skeletron, where you could accidentally dash against one of the hands and end up being launched the other way straight into the skull. Tabi is different because it simply ignores enemies.
I've never really had that problem with it, but I can't argue it because I do have friends who HAVE.

Different strokes I suppose.

Worm scarf is much better than most would expect judging from the tooltip. It actually takes away 17% before defence is factored, so the practical percentage reduction can be much higher.
Oh, snap. Okay that is pretty nice.

Then go into an Expert Mode world with an end-game character and get the content? There's no argument against this if they aren't seeking a challenge.
See now that's the most valid argument I've heard in the entire thread.

Even with endgame gear, though, bosses like Plantera can eat you right the hell up unless you do stuff like prepare a huge arena ahead of time, so in the end it's still quite the bruiser.

Goddamn did Plantera ever get buffed...

And then the Golem proceeded to be a huge pushover.

From what I've experienced with the new difficulty, it isn't as painfully difficult as some claim it to be. Pre-HM bosses got a massive bump in difficulty, which I definitely appreciate. Otherwise, all the normal mobs are still easy as anything. Dungeon is still a walk in the park, the Goblin Invasion is no different other than stats and hell is also still simple to engage in. The Jungle is a little threatening because of the massive times on those poison debuffs though.

Entering HardMode, it's mostly just severely punishing attacks that the player receives. Illuminant bats for example do over 130 damage. The mechanical bosses received little buffs other than stat boosts. Plantera is just more spammy and punishes you more for being in tight spaces. Golem is no different. Duke Fishron has a neat little 'last stand' ability, but apart from that is still the same. Moon events? Yep, you guessed it, no different.
I've noticed it too, and that's primarily my problem with it.

Expert Mode isn't actually "more difficult", it's just more ANNOYING. It's all the same stuff except you die more easily because the mobs take longer to kill so they have more chances to hit you, and you take significantly MORE damage so you die more quickly.

Is this what people find challenging? That's not challenging, that's just a grindstone. Masochism, people.

What's my point? Basically, in Expert Mode, you just need to employ the same tactics that were effective in normal mode in most cases. For experienced players such as myself, doing this made the majority of content feel very 'similar' to playing it before 1.3. If it didn't work in Expert Mode, then it probably didn't work brilliantly in normal mode anyway but it wasn't punishing enough to kill you quickly. The only severely challenging parts of the game is the new stuff, such as the Martian Invasion, Solar Pillars and the Moon lord. But that's because it's new content. It takes time for people to find the right strategies.
Oh god the Martian Invasion... before they nerfed the probes to, y'know, not show up as much (among other things), I had events running back to back while I was just tryin'a mind my own goddamn business...
 
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FlakMaster

The Destroyer
There's really not much "skill" involved in terraria. I find that most of the difficulty simply stems from either not having enough HP or not having enough damage. You don't have enough movement control in Terraria for battles to be based on skill, I personally find, meaning that most of the time you're simply forced to take hits.

The only "dodging" in terraria consists of finding a way to keep the boss-off-screen and then shooting backwards, which is sad.
This is wholly untrue. Abusing boss mechanics by always staying clear of them is something that is often discouraged and regarded as unfair and cheesy by most of the seasoned folk.

You won't get anywhere if you don't know how to evade against, for example, Duke Fishron. That boss isn't a simple 'strafe left and right with wings until boss is dead'.

It definitely takes skill to play this game, though perhaps you're thinking more of the twitchy, reaction kind of skill solely. Whereas actually, it is moreso a combination of that, preparation, wit (for arena builds as an example) and adaptability. Proof that it exists? Just from being in TCF (and TO once upon a time) and observing many people that are incapable of killing post-buff Normal mode Destroyer with Titanium armour and the like...and then other peeps beating it while using only Pre-HM gear.

The height between the skill floor and ceiling in this game is definitely, at the very least, significant.

bosses like Plantera can eat you right the hell up unless you do stuff like prepare a huge arena ahead of time, so in the end it's still quite the bruiser.
Only if you let them. Some specific weapons can reach over 5000DPS or even in the five-digit figures; Plantera certainly cannot take away 500 health in 4 seconds.

Though an exception I guess is the Moon Lord. I don't know how much end-game gear trivialises that boss, though.
 

Quenton

Terrarian
Though an exception I guess is the Moon Lord. I don't know how much end-game gear trivialises that boss, though.
End-game gear, at least in my experience, doesn't really trivialize ML. What trivializes him is setting up an arena designed for you to be able to sit and just facetank all the damage and get healed by heart statues and attack him through walls with solar flare eruption while the big laser beam attacks don't hit you.
 
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DJFlare84

Mechanic
This is wholly untrue. Abusing boss mechanics by always staying clear of them is something that is often discouraged and regarded as unfair and cheesy by most of the seasoned folk.
Something I can agree with.

You won't get anywhere if you don't know how to evade against, for example, Duke Fishron. That boss isn't a simple 'strafe left and right with wings until boss is dead'.
Well, okay you've got me there. I fought Duke Fishron and he is a pretty good example of actually using good dodging skills.

I can't think of anyone else that requires it, though. Duke Fishron is really the only one because he moves too fast, but doesn't immediately fill the area with stuff that can hurt you (the way Moon Lord or, say, Plantera does).

Expert Mode Eye of Cthulhu WOULD be fun, but he moves too fast at a point in the game where you don't have any accessories that will let you dodge his charges. For him, you really don't have any choice but to try and out-last him.

It definitely takes skill to play this game, though perhaps you're thinking more of the twitchy, reaction kind of skill solely. Whereas actually, it is moreso a combination of that, preparation, wit (for arena builds as an example) and adaptability. Proof that it exists? Just from being in TCF (and TO once upon a time) and observing many people that are incapable of killing post-buff Normal mode Destroyer with Titanium armour and the like...and then other peeps beating it while using only Pre-HM gear.

The height between the skill floor and ceiling in this game is definitely, at the very least, significant.
Yeah, I was really just thinking of the movement-based skill. If you're trying to rely on JUST that, you're pretty much just getting squished repeatedly. With Terraria, it's very much LESS that, and MORE the whole preparation and arena building.



Only if you let them. Some specific weapons can reach over 5000DPS or even in the five-digit figures; Plantera certainly cannot take away 500 health in 4 seconds.
Like I said, huge arena. Plantera is all about having LOTS of space, which means oftentimes you have to straight-up bulldoze whole sections of the underground jungle.

Now if only her bulb would be polite enough to spawn closely to an arena I built for follow-up battles, that'd just be peachy, lol.

Though an exception I guess is the Moon Lord. I don't know how much end-game gear trivialises that boss, though.
Outside of Last Prism, which I'm told can eat through him in seconds, most end-game gear doesn't really trivialize him by much.

Houses, on the other hand...
 

FlakMaster

The Destroyer
I can't think of anyone else that requires it, though.
Queen Bee, Expert Skeletron, Spazmatism (and Retinazer to an extent), Martian Saucer are further examples.

I think an issue is very much so wings, in that as soon as you get them, you have access to super mobility and therefore can avoid a lot of attacks completely. In pre-HM, with Spectre+ Boots, your mobility in air is much more limited and therefore you have to be a lot more cautious and efficient.

What I do find odd though is that the game doesn't have that much enemies that lead their shots. To take an example of an enemy from a different game called Serious Sam: BFE. There is an enemy known as the 'Scrapjack Rocketeer' that fires a swarm of deadly rockets with a pair of launchers. He fires each launcher differently though, one shoots at your current location and the other shoots at where you will be if you keep moving in the same linear fashion. This means you have to be wary not to stay still while also to move a bit more cleverly.

In Terraria, most projectiles shot at you are simply avoided by constant mobility.

Expert Mode Eye of Cthulhu WOULD be fun
I'm fairly sure that EoC's erratic charging does indeed have a pattern, it is just too hard to initially see and isn't rendered as an importance to know. At the end of the day, expert mode or not, it's still the first boss and will always be trivial to engage.
 

DJFlare84

Mechanic
Queen Bee, Expert Skeletron, Spazmatism (and Retinazer to an extent), Martian Saucer are further examples.
Oh yeeaaah. Queen Bee's dash thing, the Cursed Flame shots (until second form anyway, then you're back to playing keep-away).

I really do like the Martian Saucer, btw. Aside from the fact that it's super easy to get a Cosmic Car Key from, the attacks are really well thought out.

It IS super annoying that the missile attack explosions go through walls and killed a bunch of my NPC's, though...

I think an issue is very much so wings, in that as soon as you get them, you have access to super mobility and therefore can avoid a lot of attacks completely. In pre-HM, with Spectre+ Boots, your mobility in air is much more limited and therefore you have to be a lot more cautious and efficient.
I prefer the Yellow Horseshoe Balloon, myself.

What I do find odd though is that the game doesn't have that much enemies that lead their shots. To take an example of an enemy from a different game called Serious Sam: BFE. There is an enemy known as the 'Scrapjack Rocketeer' that fires a swarm of deadly rockets with a pair of launchers. He fires each launcher differently though, one shoots at your current location and the other shoots at where you will be if you keep moving in the same linear fashion. This means you have to be wary not to stay still while also to move a bit more cleverly.

In Terraria, most projectiles shot at you are simply avoided by constant mobility.
The best Terraria can do in that sense is use homing shots that move faster than the player, but can't turn very well. I'd like to see a little more of that, yeah (but not a whole lot), instead of simply "fill the arena with projectiles". That's more of a bullet-hell thing...
 

XiaoThePotato

Skeletron Prime
Hey guys! I found a simple solution!

If you want the goddamn loot that bad, and you can't beat the boss, just inventory edit it in.
 
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