Philitopolis
Eye of Cthulhu
Seems WAY TOO HARD for me to beat but I'm sure some of you people out there would be able to finish it. Extremely well made post, I would love to see this in Terraria.
Game Mechanics Nightmare Mode (A Difficulty Level above Expert Mode)
- Thread starter Aurora3500
- Start date
- Status
Made an update to this suggestion based on more feedback. Significant points include reducing how regular enemy stats get multiplied by x3 instead of x4 compared to Normal Mode to make it slightly easier. And Moon Lord gets a Nightmare Mode Exclusive Item to serve as a "reward for clearing Nightmare Mode" I tried to make it strong without being overpowered. Other changes will be implemented at a later time.
EDIT 2 (October 25th 2015):
Implemented a few suggestions based on feedback from users
Nightmare Mode is Automatically unlocked to be selected on World Creation if you bring in a Nightmare World Save File into a fresh installation of Terraria (Can also include an Expert World that has the Moon Lord beaten).
Overall Spawn Rate and Spawn Limit is increased for all biomes significantly during night time.
Events occur at a more frequent rate.
Slightly nerfed the stats for Queen Bee, WoF, and The Twins
Added Ultra Healing Potions and made Super Healing Potions obtainable from Merchant Post-Plantera and Pre-Lunar.
Moon Lord's Treasure Bag will contain more of its main drops (Weapons like Meowmere, Last Prism) along with its other drops and Expert Items, and will have a special Nightmare Mode Item in it.
Regular Enemy Stats are only increased by x3 instead of x4 compared to Normal Mode Stats in Nightmare Mode.
EDIT 2 (October 25th 2015):
Implemented a few suggestions based on feedback from users
Nightmare Mode is Automatically unlocked to be selected on World Creation if you bring in a Nightmare World Save File into a fresh installation of Terraria (Can also include an Expert World that has the Moon Lord beaten).
Overall Spawn Rate and Spawn Limit is increased for all biomes significantly during night time.
Events occur at a more frequent rate.
Slightly nerfed the stats for Queen Bee, WoF, and The Twins
Added Ultra Healing Potions and made Super Healing Potions obtainable from Merchant Post-Plantera and Pre-Lunar.
Moon Lord's Treasure Bag will contain more of its main drops (Weapons like Meowmere, Last Prism) along with its other drops and Expert Items, and will have a special Nightmare Mode Item in it.
Regular Enemy Stats are only increased by x3 instead of x4 compared to Normal Mode Stats in Nightmare Mode.
I think this is a great idea,
but the probleme is that if the game creators would add more stuff in the future after the Moon Lord
it would be crazy to beat after Moon Lord Bosses even on expert mode.
I mean everyone has his one skill level of course but i rather like to finish some crazy japanese bullet hell games instead of beating some "after Moon Lord bosses on nightmare mode".
but the probleme is that if the game creators would add more stuff in the future after the Moon Lord
it would be crazy to beat after Moon Lord Bosses even on expert mode.
I mean everyone has his one skill level of course but i rather like to finish some crazy japanese bullet hell games instead of beating some "after Moon Lord bosses on nightmare mode".
The Hexagonal Donut
Plantera
This type of rudeness isn't allowed in the suggestions sub-forum.
How about no. Expert Mode is still incomplete (mechs need added attack patterns and a redone drop pool- which is something I keep forgetting to make a thread about- and the Lunatic Cultist needs a drop, among other things), and we don't need a difficulty that is basically 'dark souls' difficulty, only even less fair. At least with Dark Souls, you can circumvent some of the difficulty with a careful eye- you can't do that with Terraria.
The worst part about this is I'm not even surprised. People like you are so predictable- a game gets a higher difficulty, and you immediately start demanding one that's even harder and less fair.
No.
The worst part about this is I'm not even surprised. People like you are so predictable- a game gets a higher difficulty, and you immediately start demanding one that's even harder and less fair.
No.
Well the great thing is even if they would add something like this, you can deside with which "difficult settings" you like to play.
I mean everyone likes to do other stuff in this game.
I think making a mod out of this idea would be much wiser,
so that everyone who wants the ultimate challenge can install it with a focused mind.
It would also not creep the normal terraria player away if he would start a new game.
I think this is a great idea,
but the probleme is that if the game creators would add more stuff in the future after the Moon Lord
it would be crazy to beat after Moon Lord Bosses even on expert mode.
I mean everyone has his one skill level of course but i rather like to finish some crazy japanese bullet hell games instead of beating some "after Moon Lord bosses on nightmare mode".
It would be true that this would be a problem with Post-Moon Lord content. This was made under the assumption that there will be no Post-Moon Lord Content, but if there ever is Post-Moon Lord Content then I would think about updating this suggestion along with my others for that in that case.
My reasoning behind creating this suggestion is to expand the options Terraria has with difficulty (like any other game that has 3-5 difficulty levels). Also because Expert Mode can be easily beaten by players bringing in items from beating the game on Normal Mode like the Meowmere and Last Prism and breezing through Expert Mode with them. I consider this unfair to the game as well when people want the rewards of Expert Mode without being willing to put in the effort to obtain them, which is why an even harder difficulty mode that highly discourages people from bringing endgame items seemed necessary.
I could've made this suggestion to just be about "Illegal Items" in Expert Mode, but it seemed like it would be an even more controversial suggestion to make considering that Expert Mode was already established and would greatly affect the game currently established, which is why it seemed necessary to make a higher difficulty to implement this new idea that doesn't change what is already established. When there are even a few people that think "Expert Moon Lord is easy" or even "All of Expert Mode is easy" it seems necessary to give these people a greater challenge (I'm not saying I personally find Expert Mode to be easy, this was made in reaction to other players saying things like "Expert Moon Lord is Easy" which made me decide to make a suggestion in response to this). More difficulty levels don't always need to be made when situations like this happen, but having a few difficulty levels is in the best interests of everyone because there are different types of gamers. This is designed to give them that challenge and I'm sorry if it doesn't sound good to you, but there are people who find Expert Mode easy and games don't have to be restricted to just 2 difficulty levels.
I don't appreciate being called "predictable". I want to clear up the misunderstanding that it seems like I created this suggestion to be needlessly cruel to players. Because that is not the reason. I don't see adding more difficulty levels as something "unnecessary" nor do I see any harm in the difficulty levels ranging from very easy to very difficult to accommodate gamers of many skill levels. Only the devs can say whether Expert Mode is incomplete or not, but it doesn't stop new features from being added as well.
This is an important point about this suggestion as well, if implemented it is only after Expert Mode has been beaten that the player will have the choice to make a Nightmare mode which is completely optional on its own anyway. A player could never touch Nightmare Mode if they wanted and still get the full Experience of Terraria through the other types of Worlds. The only reason a player would make a Nightmare Mode is if they want an extreme challenge that tests them at their full potential, the type of gamers who enjoy an "Arcade"-style difficulty. New Players will not see Nightmare Mode and not be aware of it's existence as you have to be an experienced player already to beat Expert Mode which a new player is very unlikely to do if they just started playing. So it won't creep new players out (unless they look on the wiki or seek out video playthroughs, but that can't be helped).
There is actually a mod called Dynamic Difficulty that was made awhile ago before Expert Mode was even in the game. Only a Dev can confirm this, but I think Expert Mode in the current game was slightly inspired by this as well. It may or may not be true. It had 4 difficulty levels ranging from Normal, Hard (Similar to what Expert Mode is now), Hellish, and Insane. This suggestion was also slightly inspired off of that.
The Hexagonal Donut
Plantera
Let's go over this one by one, shall we?
This has been said a million times by people other than and including me, and it annoys the hell out of me when people seem to ignore it: Just because other games do it, does not mean Terraria has to. Especially when you're locking extremely valuable items (and not social ones) behind that difficulty.
Allow me to correct you on just how WRONG you are, as I have tried and failed to do this myself- bringing in items from other worlds will not save you lategame. I haven't even beaten the towers because of how high the difficulty is. Sure, other players are more skilled than me, but they're a much smaller group than the majority of players. Which leads into my next point...
I don't think you understand how these things work. A 'few people' is not enough to warrant this massive of a change. It never is. There are over 3 million players who have played this game since 1.3 (based on the number of players with the chopping wood achievement), and the numbers you're talking are maybe a couple thousand. As a general rule, very few developers are willing to put that much effort into something that only serves an incredibly tiny fraction of their playerbase.
Other games have the advantage of being able to get away with tweaking stats and maybe adding a little to some bosses. Expert Mode changed a lot more than stats and boss behaviour- a lot of general enemy behaviour was also changed. This is a massive effort post-development, and as I've already said, it isn't really worthwhile.
I never said you were, I merely said you're predictable because I'll bet you five bucks that if the same basic thing happened to another game, someone like you would come and demand something even harder, like you are now. And it is unnecessary when Expert Mode is already hard enough (if not TOO hard) for over 90-95% of the playerbase. Terraria doesn't have to accommodate for masochists. That's what games like Dark Souls and Kaizo hacks are for (although the latter is considerably more unfair). Could it be done? Sure. Does it have to be. No. Therefore, it's unnecessary.
Let me put it this way. Every single boss except for the mechs has increased stats in addition to new functionality, and every boss except the Lunatic Cultist has an expert mode drop (and there IS a bag for the Cultist in the game files, so don't you dare tell me he isn't supposed to have one). If that isn't incomplete, I don't know what is. (Also, the mech boss's collective drop is garbage for its placement, and should really be replaced with 3 separate drops, including the cart.)
pajrc
Official Terrarian
First of all: WHOA
That is awesome! The challenge sounds really fun!!!
Anyway, SUPPORT
That is awesome! The challenge sounds really fun!!!
Both of these already happen. In my first Expert playthrough with @MetaKnight956 , I broke the first Demon Altar and the next second pirates came (just my luck!).
It would still require a merchant, right? That's been a requirement for the Nurse even before 1.3.
Anyway, SUPPORT
Dragrath
Duke Fishron
hmmm While I could support a higher difficulty I'm not sure how I feel about this particular suggestion as it does not seem very balanced so as is I can not support this.
True difficulty should not simply rack up the stats of enemies and call it balance, this has been attempted in may games before but only results in the creation of bullet sponges which typically punishes characters for using non max DPS glass cannon builds and rendering defense obsolete. As is expert mode has been balanced to avoid this on the offensive side but raising the stats anymore would very surely ruin the defensive side thus making certain classes particularly melee and summoner unviable. Terraria has already at points encroached on this domain during 1.2 and it was quickly met with community backlash led by some of the more skilled players. More over as the game already has bullet sponge examples (i.e. Dungeon Guardian)we can see players do not enjoy these activities and rarely repeat them without an AFK area to perform the work.
Another point of contention involves the addition of items from other worlds. While restricting yourself to a world with no items from an other world can definitely make a good challenge, punishing players who simply want the gear from this new difficulty is a poor decision after all restricting access isn't the best way to handle things considering how its gone over on other games and in particular how it conflicts with the core of what makes Terraria, Terraria. If anything this should be relegated to an achievement rather than an all out restriction. Terraria is a game that embraces open opportunities an the ability to jump characters and worlds, its what makes the game stand out when compared to others in its genre, a genre it helped form, removing what makes a game unique doesn't make the game better it makes it weaker.
The last contention is giving common enemies the ability to destroy terrain while less important compared to the other aspects this is a feature that has been tested in the game and later removed due to it's unpopularity while it might be different compared to when there was only one difficulty it does tend to make the world look really ugly after a while, take for instance dig or die...
Difficulty should deal with additions more akin to the new attack patterns of expert mode early game bosses but for more enemies. In this area expert mode improved things greatly and I agree much more could be done in regards to attack patterns as I feel expert modes attack patterns are a little on the bland side for regular enemies and quite a few later bosses *cough* mechs *cough*. The shield abilities you have suggested could certainly work for bosses particularly during transformation phases for bosses such as the EOC Twins ect I'd actually be keen to see them in action, they would likely require stat balances as well though as if implemented poorly then you will only stall for time.
If you can make a difficulty suggestion that adds difficulty with terrifying high damage boss attacks, adds tons of new attack patterns for both common enemies and bosses/event bosses count me in. But if you want to make the game harder with needless stat buffs and restrictions sorry I can't see it as anything but fake difficulty.
True difficulty should not simply rack up the stats of enemies and call it balance, this has been attempted in may games before but only results in the creation of bullet sponges which typically punishes characters for using non max DPS glass cannon builds and rendering defense obsolete. As is expert mode has been balanced to avoid this on the offensive side but raising the stats anymore would very surely ruin the defensive side thus making certain classes particularly melee and summoner unviable. Terraria has already at points encroached on this domain during 1.2 and it was quickly met with community backlash led by some of the more skilled players. More over as the game already has bullet sponge examples (i.e. Dungeon Guardian)we can see players do not enjoy these activities and rarely repeat them without an AFK area to perform the work.
Another point of contention involves the addition of items from other worlds. While restricting yourself to a world with no items from an other world can definitely make a good challenge, punishing players who simply want the gear from this new difficulty is a poor decision after all restricting access isn't the best way to handle things considering how its gone over on other games and in particular how it conflicts with the core of what makes Terraria, Terraria. If anything this should be relegated to an achievement rather than an all out restriction. Terraria is a game that embraces open opportunities an the ability to jump characters and worlds, its what makes the game stand out when compared to others in its genre, a genre it helped form, removing what makes a game unique doesn't make the game better it makes it weaker.
The last contention is giving common enemies the ability to destroy terrain while less important compared to the other aspects this is a feature that has been tested in the game and later removed due to it's unpopularity while it might be different compared to when there was only one difficulty it does tend to make the world look really ugly after a while, take for instance dig or die...
Difficulty should deal with additions more akin to the new attack patterns of expert mode early game bosses but for more enemies. In this area expert mode improved things greatly and I agree much more could be done in regards to attack patterns as I feel expert modes attack patterns are a little on the bland side for regular enemies and quite a few later bosses *cough* mechs *cough*. The shield abilities you have suggested could certainly work for bosses particularly during transformation phases for bosses such as the EOC Twins ect I'd actually be keen to see them in action, they would likely require stat balances as well though as if implemented poorly then you will only stall for time.
If you can make a difficulty suggestion that adds difficulty with terrifying high damage boss attacks, adds tons of new attack patterns for both common enemies and bosses/event bosses count me in. But if you want to make the game harder with needless stat buffs and restrictions sorry I can't see it as anything but fake difficulty.
I think I said that the ability to destroy terrain would be limited only to invasion enemies like the Goblins and Pirates. Though I see I said the Frost Golem has this ability as well. Regardless you are right in that it would probably cause too many issues than it is worth when thinking about what could happen in the long run, so I will remove this from the Invasion enemies and the Frost Golem. It seems that this feature isn't good to have considering that others have expressed the same concern here.
I'll eventually add some more enemy attacks/patterns/debuffs. There are several things I still need to change about this suggestion based on your feedback and previous feedback. Most of the main bosses have received new types of attacks that do high damage with the Mechs and Golem in particular receiving several new tricks. A few Bosses like the EoC and EoW only have shield abilities so I will try to add some new attack patterns for them as well. The shield mechanics will also be changed for some bosses.
The Illegal Items is indeed controversial. It was the best way I could think of to prevent "cheating" similar to what can happen in Expert Mode, though it may not work out in practice and it also seems to go against the Spirit of Terraria like you said. I personally think that the gear from Expert Mode as well as this Theoretical Nightmare Mode should have to be earned by playing the game normally (Not bringing in endgame items you used in previous worlds), though it will be better to see what the community thinks about it overall. Which is why I will remove the current poll and try to put up a new one to get the general view on how Illegal Items is seen overall.
This feedback was insightful overall and I thank you for writing it. When I am able to make these changes hopefully it will make it not seem like Fake Difficulty.
Its all good. Its good to have any form of Sprite. I'll add this into the suggestion and credit you for it.
Dragrath
Duke Fishron
Glad to see I helped, constructive critisism is a very useful tool.
For the avoiding cheating situation as I aforementioned I feel that an achievement is the best route to go with this as it is a fairly good middle ground somthing like beat the game(i.e everything mandatory progression mode wise)up to and including on nightmare mode using a fresh world and charecter with no inported items so they can "cheat" if they want but they would lack the achievement if they did so they would only gimp themselves out there.
As for the bosses/enemies if you run out of ideas, I recommend studying up on some enemy attack patterns from games like metroid or the metroidvania castlevania games for inspiration as they clearly have been one of the sources of inspiration for relogic.
Also for some of the bosses have you considered a deflection rather than a shield? The Solarians already have added the mechanic so its definitely possible maybe a shield that deflects projectiles but the boss gives a small fleeting hint hes going to use it first? After all with a normal shield you could keep spamming but if deflection comes into play you need to stop attacking...
Updated suggestion with these sprites.
That's interesting. I didn't know Pirates could appear before breaking the Altar in Expert Mode. I'll remove those statements in this case.
That is right.
- Status
