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PC [Semi-Spoiler] Why is Melee Turning into a Ranged Class?

The title is pretty self-explanatory. I've heard a few Youtubers saying this, as well. Conventionally, melee classes have exceptionally high defense on their armor and/or damage on their weapons as compensation for a lack of range. Right now, it's anything but. I mean, look at the Scourge of the Corrputor, the Meowmere, and the Star Wrath. They have high damage with no trade-offs in terms of resources (and in the case of the Star Wrath, they have a resourceless Blizzard Staff). Melee is clearly ahead of the other three classes in terms of endgame equipment; they have the same ranged DPS as the other two (excluding Summoner; that one's hard to categorize), but with no resources to manage. Additionally, they (for some reason) still have nearly double the defense of other classes. I'm okay with Melee having ranged weapons, but they should, at the very least, have a lower DPS potential than the classes that "pay" to have range (look at the Lunar Flare/S.D.M.G. vs. the Meowmere/Star Wrath). Right now, there's no reason to choose anything but Melee in the mid-endgame. Does anyone else feel that this is a problem?
 

iChaseLegends

Official Terrarian
The title is pretty self-explanatory. I've heard a few Youtubers saying this, as well. Conventionally, melee classes have exceptionally high defense on their armor and/or damage on their weapons as compensation for a lack of range. Right now, it's anything but. I mean, look at the Scourge of the Corrputor, the Meowmere, and the Star Wrath. They have high damage with no trade-offs in terms of resources (and in the case of the Star Wrath, they have a resourceless Blizzard Staff). Melee is clearly ahead of the other three classes in terms of endgame equipment; they have the same ranged DPS as the other two (excluding Summoner; that one's hard to categorize), but with no resources to manage. Additionally, they (for some reason) still have nearly double the defense of other classes. I'm okay with Melee having ranged weapons, but they should, at the very least, have a lower DPS potential than the classes that "pay" to have range (look at the Lunar Flare/S.D.M.G. vs. the Meowmere/Star Wrath). Right now, there's no reason to choose anything but Melee in the mid-endgame. Does anyone else feel that this is a problem?
I agree that Melee class is turning into some Projectile Ranged class but everything else does not fit. Melee is not the only choice as there is Mage, Summoner, and Ranger. Not everyone has the same preferences in what class they decide. And Melee is definitely not the "Endgame" most powerful class there is. Re-Logic balanced the classes for a reason. Each class has their ups and downs but as far as balancing goes, it's all spot on.
 

Crazymonkeyz1

Skeletron Prime
Okay, Ranger really doesn't have to worry about ammo. I basically only play ranger because they're so easy to play. Even if you run out of ammo slots, you can just put ammo in your inventory. But this is Pre 1.3. I have yet to play 1.3 because I need to wait for something in the mail, but I think ranged stayed the same. But If what you say about 1.3 is true, and Melee is just becoming a tanky ranger, then I agree with you about too many projectile shooters. Maybe more weapons like the Horseman's blade? so you actually have to get up close.
 

Terrasyn

Eye of Cthulhu
I'm guessing you guys haven't used Phantasm or Lunar Flare yet, ranged and melee weapons respectively. I'd be curious to have a DPS check on those versus a melee weapon like Meowmere or Star Wrath.
 

iChaseLegends

Official Terrarian
First off, what I meant by, "there's no reason to choose anything but Melee" was to say that Melee is far superior to the other three classes in terms of damage. They (Melee weapons) do the same damage as the other classes, if not more, but have no resources or range restrictions hindering them. Secondly, Melee has no "downs"; it has nothing but "ups". Right now, Mage and Ranger are restricted by gating mechanisms (ammo, mana), but sport the same damage and range as Melee. Melee, meanwhile, doesn't have to pay anything for its range, something it wasn't intended to have in the first place. Someone who prefers something other than Melee shouldn't be punished for it. Right now, that's the case.
Thank you for clearing yourself but let me clear something of my own. I was not in any way, shape, or form trying to contradict what you said. Everyone's opinion is their opinion. Back on track, I understand now and I do agree Melee is a superior class compared to the many others. But maybe because of the various and abundent anount of powerful mage and ranger weapons, it may make up for the the dependency on ammo and mana. As much as I can remember, there are only a few powerful melee weapons up to date. I would say The Horseman's Blade, Yo-Yos, Meowmere, and the Star Wrath. Of course this is only my opinion, but at least we agree on an important and valid point. :)
 

Terrasyn

Eye of Cthulhu
(200 base damage
There you go, fixed. I think you confused 400 base damage as actual "full buff" damage. The actual base damage is 200. That said, the update has barely been out a day and people already pointing fingers at a particular class being "overpowered", likely without proper analysis and testing (and no, switching weapons and armor to something else and comparing damage numbers in the space of 2 minutes is not proper testing).
 

RAinbowsword12

Terrarian
The title is pretty self-explanatory. I've heard a few Youtubers saying this, as well. Conventionally, melee classes have exceptionally high defense on their armor and/or damage on their weapons as compensation for a lack of range. Right now, it's anything but. I mean, look at the Scourge of the Corrputor, the Meowmere, and the Star Wrath. They have high damage with no trade-offs in terms of resources (and in the case of the Star Wrath, they have a resourceless Blizzard Staff). Melee is clearly ahead of the other three classes in terms of endgame equipment; they have the same ranged DPS as the other two (excluding Summoner; that one's hard to categorize), but with no resources to manage. Additionally, they (for some reason) still have nearly double the defense of other classes. I'm okay with Melee having ranged weapons, but they should, at the very least, have a lower DPS potential than the classes that "pay" to have range (look at the Lunar Flare/S.D.M.G. vs. the Meowmere/Star Wrath). Right now, there's no reason to choose anything but Melee in the mid-endgame. Does anyone else feel that this is a problem?
I disagree with what you said about melee being the "Best" class. The weapons that you mentioned were both the best melee weapons in the game as of right now. Although melee has high defense, they would get torn up by the pillars and the moon lord if they had to get up close. Now, about the damage per second of these weapons. Balanced, for where you get them. Weapons like phantasm, nebula arcanum, and the last prism which is the coolest mage weapon I have ever seen have far more dps than these weapons. Yes we have yet to see a sword that actually does what swords are supposed to do, but think about it, these swords drop from the moon lord... it would be a major letdown if they didn't do something cool. All in all, I think Red and the rest of the devs did a good job balancing the classes and even giving us some pretty amazing summoning items.
 

Crazymonkeyz1

Skeletron Prime
It's more that Melee gets the perks of both inherently ranged classes without any downsides. If you look at Melee in Terraria 1.1, it was a largely short ranged, tanky class with slightly higher DPS and spammability. The problem arose when Melee got range without any of its tankiness or DPS being nerfed. Right now, Melee has a noticeable advantage over the conventionally ranged classes of Mage and Ranger.

If you've ever played DotA, this "power creep" effect was balanced through the heroes using HP as a resource (read: melee) having little to no range, but being rewarded for being able to get within range of their ranged counterparts (AoE DOT effects, et cetera). In Terraria, each class had a gating mechanism; mana for mages, ammo/being squishy for rangers, and HP/range for Melee. The HP/range gating mechanism for Melee disappears and gets replaced with an advantage of the opposite manner when they (Melee characters) have the same range as you. A short cooldown on projectile melee weapons as well as a slight lowering of defense for endgame melee armors would fix the problem at hand. Or, as you suggested, the projectile would only activate if the sword's sprite was touching an enemy; the Horseman's Blade is definitely an example of a well-designed projectile melee weapon.
Well, that may be true. Melee needed to be buffed though, be it in the wrong way. I'd say melee was one of the weaker classes in 1.2.4. At least for me it was. Also, taking out the melee class's tankability for ranged swords is a bad idea, and really would make the melee class bad.
 

Crazymonkeyz1

Skeletron Prime
I'm not implying that the projectile parts of current Melee swords should be eradicated. Rather, they need a gating mechanism of their own. A Lunar Flare, an endgame weapon, is noticeably worse than a Star Wrath. And a (non mana-reliant) Meowmere can get pretty close to matching the Last Prism in DPS, probably even to a point where the difference is insignificant. Leaving the game in an obvious state of imbalance after the final boss would also be a major letdown to fans of other classes. I can't argue with the introduction of Summoner as a class, it's a nice addition that fully embraces what has largely been only a portion of a class to this point. Back to the topic, the cool effects that the endgame swords provide should be kept as such, but DPS and/or use time should be nerfed. This, or the other classes need to be compensated for being hindered by a resource. Melee shouldn't have such a clear advantage.

Even in 1.2, the Scourge of the Corruptor, Death Sickle, and Terra Blade were the most used weapons, at least from my observations. The Razorblade Typhoon was only used by diehard mages, Rangers were pretty rare. This shouldn't be the case; each classes needs at least one clear advantage over the other two, but Melee has all the advantages at the moment, with no disadvantages.
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Okay, yeah. Bad suggestion. Tankability is a trademark of Melee, and shouldn't be taken away. Melee was pretty strong in 1.2.4 in terms of late-game equipment, what with the Scourge of the Corruptor, Terra Blade, Death Sickle, etc. A reduction in the spammability of their ranged swords would be nice; a cooldown could be added, or a mechanic requiring them to be within a certain range of their target.
Or, instead of a cool down, the projectile could get weaker and weaker the more you used in in like, a span of 30 seconds. This would make it so even if you spam it, it will end up not doing very much damage
 

MrDinky

Terrarian
melee is terrible ... summoner is the ONLY class ive been able to sustain enough to kill end game Moon Walker with. Let alone Solar Pillar.

melees armor simply doesnt give proper sustain. Sure you may live a little longer, but without the life regen you can't survive tough situations.

In fact...id argue that every class OTHER than mage is simply useless in the current end game. Ive tried all the new end game armors other than the ranged...and they just can not live up to the mage armor. Even specter armor is better.

I dont know if you guys are setting up huge arenas to battle...but I dont have time for that....I just play mage.
 

RAinbowsword12

Terrarian
melee is terrible ... summoner is the ONLY class ive been able to sustain enough to kill end game Moon Walker with. Let alone Solar Pillar.

melees armor simply doesnt give proper sustain. Sure you may live a little longer, but without the life regen you can't survive tough situations.

In fact...id argue that every class OTHER than mage is simply useless in the current end game. Ive tried all the new end game armors other than the ranged...and they just can not live up to the mage armor. Even specter armor is better.

I dont know if you guys are setting up huge arenas to battle...but I dont have time for that....I just play mage.
Don't forget about the awesome solar armor and vortex armor set bonuses, which in my opinion are better than the mage set bonus and slightly better than the stardust armor set bonus.(I gotta admit, the stardust armor set bonus is pretty awesome though). Solar armor gets a shield that blocks 3 attacks and allows you to dash, it regens very fast and is kinda what melee needed. The vortex armor allows you to go stealth which increases pretty much all stats for ranged weapons. It also makes you practically invisible. I have to admit, I am very happy with the increase of summoner items and summoner is a very playable class now. If you think that the other classes can't compete with summoner, you obviously haven't used the star wrath, last prism, and the phantasm which are arguably the best weapons for each class.
 

MrDinky

Terrarian
Don't forget about the awesome solar armor and vortex armor set bonuses, which in my opinion are better than the mage set bonus and slightly better than the stardust armor set bonus.(I gotta admit, the stardust armor set bonus is pretty awesome though). Solar armor gets a shield that blocks 3 attacks and allows you to dash, it regens very fast and is kinda what melee needed. The vortex armor allows you to go stealth which increases pretty much all stats for ranged weapons. It also makes you practically invisible. I have to admit, I am very happy with the increase of summoner items and summoner is a very playable class now. If you think that the other classes can't compete with summoner, you obviously haven't used the star wrath, last prism, and the phantasm which are arguably the best weapons for each class.

All the classes are decent.... But the only one that you don't have to worry about dying with is mage.

Melee is okay of you're grouped with someone that does damage

Summoner is OK of you're grouped with melee

Ranged is okay if you're grouped with melee

Mage is fine whenever wherever
 

TOGOT

Terrarian
I agree, at this point in time melee sees a bit over powered. With "melee" weapons that do high ranged damage for no cost, the idea said by crazymonkey would work really well. I think that to give the melee class some more tanking powers, hitting something with a melee hit(not a beam or other such item) gives health regen, and damage for a few seconds(like pallidium but much stronger)
 

Nike Leon

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Uh, what? I think you're confusing yourself. The Meowmere also cannot reach a 400 base damage output.
I don't think you know what 'base' damage is. With full Melee armor and accessories, along with a 'Legendary' prefix, it has ~400 minimum damage on each hit, known as 'base' damage. If you want to argue with me further, go look up the definition. And this isn't the point of the thread, anyway.
P.S. It's sorta hard to read your colored posts.

EDIT:
It also seems that you forgot to include the rest of my sentences in your quotes. Nice.
While friendly sarcasm is fine, derisive language is rude and not acceptable here. Please keep in mind that here on TCF we expect all members to post respectfully and maturely :)
 

Terrasyn

Eye of Cthulhu
Except your definition of "base" damage includes modifiers and potions, which is not a "base". It's what your character is attributed with, like armors and stats, not external modifiers. Even still, where are you seeing 400 damage? I've never seen it that high. That 400 damage you're seeing is not "base" damage. Not to mention you're claiming something is overpowered two days after the update has been out, and you're telling me that you never said it was overpowered at all.

It sounds like you did a two minute comparison of weapons and what you thought seemed to do more damage by standing still, like a pseudo analysis.

I'm sorry it's hard for you to read.
 

Terrasyn

Eye of Cthulhu
I got 400 damage from GullofDoom's video, and a number slightly higher than that from my own calculations. All of your other curiosities have already been addressed in my previoius replies. This isn't something I'm going to argue further about; it's simply derailing the thread. Anyway, thanks for your insight on this topic.
Ah, so you based on interpreted data rather than personal experimentation. Gotcha.

Sadly, no, they were not addressed. But seeking input from others and then dismissing them isn't exactly proper etiquette. You're right, melee is turning into a mix of melee and ranged, but it's been around for a long time. You needn't look any further than StarFury to notice that.
 

Leinfors

Quality Assurance
Staff member
Moderator
Re-Logic
Except your definition of "base" damage includes modifiers and potions, which is not a "base". It's what your character is attributed with, like armors and stats, not external modifiers. Even still, where are you seeing 400 damage? I've never seen it that high. That 400 damage you're seeing is not "base" damage. Not to mention you're claiming something is overpowered two days after the update has been out, and you're telling me that you never said it was overpowered at all.
Base damage normally does refer to "unmodified damage", but in this case, he is using it to refer to modified direct damage as listed on the weapon's tooltip and on a hit. While your definitions are different, it doesn't change the basis of what he is arguing, just the choice of words to do so. I'd ask that you politely leave the hostility out of your posts, especially when discussing word choice and definitions.

Also, for the record, I pretty quickly managed this:
Legendarily.png


The base attack speed of Meowmere is 15, and with Legendary and a few other melee speed buffs, its probably around 11 right now. Assuming a use time of 11, a modified damage of 536, and a critical strike chance of 42% (which results in an mean damage of about 761 per hit), the Meowmere should be doing 4150 direct damage per second while in striking distance of the enemy (this does not include projectile damage).

Just some information, since there seem to be criticisms of the quality of the data.
 
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