Official Announcement regarding changes to conversations (private messages)

@Chir' You've been saying this repeatedly, and no. We're not going to do that. That's completely unreasonable.

You are missing the point entirely. We're not against people talking in private but we are trying to discoruaging people using the forum primarily for private chat - This is a forum, not steam or discord direct messages.
 
And yet, the feature has become unavailable for everyone it matters to.
It is not unavailable, you're twisting matters.

You, and a fair few others posting here are over the limit that we deemed appropriate. Conversations still exist. If you've been using Conversations to privately chat and you are over this limit then you fall into the group that we believe to be misusing the feature. If you believe this to be wrong, you're free to raise your concerns and doubts.

Not everyone affected has been abusing the feature, we understand that from people using it to archive roleplay details.
 
Again, it is very clear to me that what is considered "appropriate" use, is no use.
Most users on the forum are still capable of opening up conversations with multiple people and talking fairly regularly on a daily basis.

It is unusual for users to have what are essentially hundreds or thousands of pages worth of posts in singular conversations - these would normally be threads, at this point it isn't really a "private chat", at least not in the definition that's deemed appropriate.

15,000 posts is around 750 pages. Most threads don't reach anywhere near that. It doesn't strike you as unusual that there are conversations larger than that, on a public forum? I reiterate, this is a forum, not a private chat app.
 
As someone who may have the highest conversation message count out of everyone, I'm just saying that the assumption that conversations were being used as unmoderated chat is wrong (as far as I'm aware.)
It let people talk about niche interests (like certain spin-off games and other things too small to have their own thread) when an off-topic thread was out of the question and only like, 4 or 5 people were interested anyway. Sure, profile posts could've worked for that, but as everyone knows they're too flawed to chat on reliably. And they were usually niche enough that nobody wanted to discuss them in public conversation threads because it tends to bother people (yes, people get bothered by things, and yes it's okay that they do.)
They also let users privately sort out differences between each other when honestly that would just not work well in other places. And I feel like basically everyone I've known has been mature enough that that usually turned out well.
It also let people organize gaming sessions and such between each other, I've been in a conversation organizing a future Terraria playthrough and a conversation to set up BTD6 matches, and now I can't access them unless I delete over 75,000 posts worth of convos.
And then, yeah-- there are people too shy or uncomfortable or sensitive to talk in the public conversation threads. But is that really a problem?? I'm not sure what we're gaining by taking that away from them.

Honestly, the 5-person limit works, for the most part, fine for the above reasons. If you need like, 15 people to talk about something, you know what, it's probably better done in a public thread. So I do think I appreciate the 5-person limit. But the post limit... just baffles me... I don't think anything the mods can say is going to get people to understand, because I sure can't.
 
I shall not continue trying to argue this with you. We will never agree, and this will not go anywhere. Now, while I would love to say more things here, those are things that would count as disrespectful and potentially lead to a warning, so I shall leave them out of this.
That's fine, I appreicate you taking a little bit of time to discuss it though. You don't have to agree but I do want to make our intentions as clear as possible and I don't want people believing that we "want to remove private chat" or "Stop conversations" because that's a very thin and misunderstood way of looking at it.

You can disagree and form your own opinions but as long as you've read what I have to say then we're good, I believe you to be able to at least understand what I'm saying even if you really don't agree.

As someone who may have the highest conversation message count out of everyone, I'm just saying that the assumption that conversations were being used as unmoderated chat is wrong (as far as I'm aware.)
I was simply addressing an actual reason given earlier in the thread, though it may has been simply a passing thought it was brought up.

people talk about niche interests (like certain spin-off games and other things too small to have their own thread) when an off-topic thread was out of the question and only like, 4 or 5 people were interested anyway. Sure, profile posts could've worked for that, but as everyone knows they're too flawed to chat on reliably. And they were usually niche enough that nobody wanted to discuss them in public conversation threads because it tends to bother people (yes, people get bothered by things, and yes it's okay that they do.)
Then a thread it could be! That's precisely what threads are for. Sure only 4 or 5 people might be interested but thats exactly what a thread is for, maybe more people would jump in even if just for a message or two.

They also let users privately sort out differences between each other when honestly that would just not work well in other places. And I feel like basically everyone I've known has been mature enough that that usually turned out well.
It also let people organize gaming sessions and such between each other, I've been in a conversation organizing a future Terraria playthrough and a conversation to set up BTD6 matches, and now I can't access them unless I delete over 75,000 posts worth of convos.
And then, yeah-- there are people too shy or uncomfortable or sensitive to talk in the public conversation threads. But is that really a problem?? I'm not sure what we're gaining by taking that away from them.
Yes! That's what conversations are good for. And 15,000 posts seems like more than enough for that at least from our expectation; we've been moderating this, and some of us even the older previous forum which was vastly more active for quite some time. While we're not always correct, i'd like to think we have a pretty solid understanding of forums as we have used them extensively both as user and staff.

As for the shy part, I was really shy about posting once. I still remember my first experience in a community. It was on the old Terraria IRC and Forum, actually. But I got over it eventually, and I made a bunch of friends.

I realise I'm not the friendliest person in the world, its a bit hard to communicate with users on a forum when they think you're out to get them which I assure you isn't the case. The reason I don't jump in on all the chats around the forum is because people immedietly stiffen up and stop posting so to make things a bit more welcoming I keep a viewing distance and usually only step in when required.
 
I'm just saying that the assumption that conversations were being used as unmoderated chat is wrong (as far as I'm aware.)
It may not have gotten to a point of constant terms of use violations, but as someone with prior community moderation experience, I assure you that this was very much occurring in very specific use cases. It happens effectively everywhere that gets large enough - some groups of people will begin to get comfortable with a community space and treat it as their own, make private meeup places, and then assume anything that happens in them with their friends is "in private" so the rules don't matter.. despite it still taking place within the restrictions of the terms of use for that platform.

A decision like this is not one that is made lightly, and I only ever see private messaging get entirely disabled otherwise. 15,000 messages is a fairly large amount, yet it is also somewhat limiting. I think it's a perfectly fine number for users just trading contact details or sending quick messages in private, but my real question comes up from how this will impact users that get a higher volume of messages than others - if you keep getting messages, but don't reply to them, that should count against the limit.. so if you happen to manage a popular Terraria mod or are just a popular user for another reason, your inbox may fill very quickly. Then again, I've been on forums before where the limit is a single other user and you had about 100 mailbox slots, so...

Either way, status updates fill a similar use case as these do, they're just not private.. and I think any kind of sensitive information you'd want to keep private probably shouldn't be being posted on a Terraria forum unless you literally have zero other option to keep in contact with someone.

E: Probably not going to edit this post much at all this time around since I need to get ready for work, but in I have one more general statement to make after skimming some posts: make more public posts and you will make more friends! Not everyone in a big community will get along and that's okay but you will find the people you get along with. Sticking to yourselves in private is actually bad in this case because it makes it more difficult to expand your sub-community of friends! Be cringe but be free
 
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Alright, those reasons do sound valid, but the way the limit goes back to posts that you already made, without any prior warning about this change, is jarring to me and many others. I get if it can't be fixed, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm disappointed with how things were handled. Maybe I can get used to it, but for now I'd just rather not think about it for a while.
 
Alright, those reasons do sound valid, but the way the limit goes back to posts that you already made, without any prior warning about this change, is jarring to me and many others. I get if it can't be fixed, but it doesn't change the fact that I'm disappointed with how things were handled. Maybe I can get used to it, but for now I'd just rather not think about it for a while.
If there was a method of downloading your old messages to archive them and then there was also advance warning, this probably would have stung far less for the users impacted. For those impacted, it basically is the same thing as just having users be entirely banned for effectively no reason, and then seeing primarily negative reasons for why it happened.

It's very possible to feel like you're "at fault" or "being blamed" for what feels like the removal of a feature. It's no surprise that some of the replies here are so passionate - they sound less accusatory and they sound defensive, as if people feel accused of doing something bad. The tone of the post makes them incredibly difficult to parse as anything other than frustration and lashing out, but that's extremely understandable behavior when an entire feature is removed.
 
I don't feel like that is a particuarly good example compare with.

Forums are a gathering place to interact with and meet new people, forming friendships and relations. This is true regardless of if its a small hundred member community or tens of thousands. A degree of private chat is to be expected, but generally people stick to - or at least used to, stick to threads. Maybe they jump around lots of different ones chiming in on random topics related or unrelated to the theme of the forum, or perhaps they stick to one or two and spend a lot of time there.

A degree of private chat is to be expected. I undersand that, I talk to my friends in private as well and prefer others not to interrupt but I do so on Discord, which is an instant messaging service and prior to this I used Steam. Now I realise not everyone can access these but its important that I bring attention to the difference between them and forums.

We'll take a discord server for example. Lets use the Terraria one. People join there and chat and its pretty chaotic honestly. But there's no private channels, so if you find people you get along with you add them to a private, group chat or your own server and talk there when not posting on the Terraria one. This is effectively taking place outside of the Terraria discord.

Now, we'll talk about the same thing but on the forum. If you want to talk away from others or privately your options are Profiles or Conversations; it should be noted that both of these options are still on the forum. But once again, a certain amount of private chat is to be expected. This is a forum and forums have never been intended to be a "private chat room" Maybe some forums have private sections that only allow certain usergroups in, but its not quite the same thing as a conversation created by a group of users.

Certain people have been using conversations basically as a private chat which isn't really wrong, but when used to quite the excessive extent as it has been... it begins to raise concerns especially when people have vastly more messages in these conversations than anywhere else on the forum - Are they using the forum for its intended purpose or is it just a convenient tool to use as a private chatroom which forums are not. A line has to be drawn somewhere at this point and we picked 15,000 as that that line, deeming it appropriate when comparing to other active users that were not abusing the conversation feature.

The forum is a public place, not a private group chat. If you want to talk to people do so normally, not behind private locked doors - that goes against the community aspect. We don't want to stop people from talking privately but we want to discourage it being used quite to the extent mentioned. We've got users with notably higher post count in conversations than their pubic count as seen in a few of the previous pages. While I'm sure some of that is private but it can't all be, and if it is then I'm afraid a forum isn't the appropriate place to use for it.

If you are actually here to use the forum then talking it public shouldn't be such a revolting idea that you'll threaten to leave the forum if you can't talk in private. I understand the upset and I'm hoping people calm down and look at it more objectively. We haven't banned anyone or taken away any forum sections, off-topic and roleplay is still there, as are the general sections. Granted off-topic still has the per-approval basis when making threads but we've had that for a while to reduce spam and we're pretty quick about approving or disapproving threads there and informing the user of our decision, its just so we dont have 15 different threads about the same thing.

There've been a few strange points brought up like conversations being a way to subvert the rules and get away from moderation, this isn't the case and if you're using them for such things you're really putting your account at risk, i'd advise that you don't.

Something else brought up is that maybe they are threadbanned from where they usually chat. And I'd apologise for that but, kind of their fault. I consider myself and my peers to be quite lenient and we quite often give people many clear warnings on what behaviour isn't allowed on the forum. I myself follow up every report with a DM explaining things in clear detail and offer to answer any and all questions, despite that we still have people who refuse to cooperate and ultimately end up being removed from a thread due to their continued behaviour. We do offer appeals in this regard, we have a section for it but we also don't mind you being more formal about it; if you'd like to have restrictions or points removed you should absolutely contact a member of staff or report yourself with a message and we'll contact you.

But I'm getting off-topic here.
To put it in TL;DR...
The forums are a community space, not a private chat room. It is unintended for users to have the majority of their activity in private. We want to encourage users to use the forum in its intended manner rather than using it as a convenient tool. For those that have a great deal of private messages but have not been abusing the system in the same way, we apologise for the inconvenience but we decided it was an important decision to make for the betterment of the forum as a whole.

I understand and agree that the point of a forum is community and public discourse and that existing alternative messaging platforms would absolutely be better suited for ongoing private conversations, but I still don't see why the way it was is explicitly — or even implicitly — a problem. You yourself even just said it "isn't really wrong", so why is it that "a line has to be drawn somewhere"? What is being broken or who is being harmed that a line has to be drawn at all? I would totally yield if there were specific reasons, such as 10-year long message chains filled with attachments taking up petabytes of server memory, coordinated public harassment being organized through private group messages, or even outright illegal materials being exchanged. But so far it seems like the justification boils down to vague "concerns" based purely on speculation regarding the forum statistics of a small group of people. You speak of looking at it objectively, but I have yet to see a firm, measurable objective reason from y'all's end for doing this. (Of course, with this about to hit 400 replies, I may have simply missed it.)

And for emotional clarity, I'm not mad or anything. I'm just little confused and disappointed, feeling like y'all missed the mark on this one and am just motivated enough to step in and say "nah, this ain't it fam".
 
I understand and agree that the point of a forum is community and public discourse and that existing alternative messaging platforms would absolutely be better suited for ongoing private conversations, but I still don't see why the way it was is explicitly — or even implicitly — a problem. You yourself even just said it "isn't really wrong", so why is it that "a line has to be drawn somewhere"? What is being broken or who is being harmed that a line has to be drawn at all?
I don't think they want unfiltered messages going through the forums, private or not.
 
I assure you that as long you don't start throwing insults at anyone or making threats you'll be fine. If things get too crazy, you'll be asked clearly to calm down. We won't issue warnings over simple disagreement.

We're not asking anyone to be happy about this change. In fact, its clear most people here aren't happy and I think thats reasonable; Why would you be happy about restrictions? Your feedback is important, and we're listening. We don't have plans to revoke this, at least not in the immediate future. Maybe we'll remove it later when we think its not a problem anymore, I can't look that far ahead and it really depends on whaty happens going forward.

Its still not out of the question that we could increase the limit, discussions as seen here are still clearly quite in motion. But if we do increase it, its not going to be by a great amount. So if your problem is with the restriction itself rather than the numeral limit, i'm sorry.
Currently, the conversations I have which most align with the use case described by moderators so far does total 20027 messages, though I admit that even a 15000 message limit does seem high except for certain cases.

Personally I feel that some form of archival option would be appreciated, as manually sifting through perhaps as many as 1000 pages to either download each page individually or make notes on important information would be quite time consuming and awkward. I am not certain how feasible this would be from a technical standpoint however, as I doubt that such a feature would be a component of the forums themselves, rather, I'd expect it would instead involve some other process.
 
i hope you realize that a majority of users just post here or there and read stuff mostly and that's it. this effects like 5% of the total active userbase at the current moment. this was designed for the average user not the 5% who post like 40+ messages a day as not every change cant be geared towards them. as doing so would potentially hurt the most common type of user here. same thing also applies to the other party.
this is a genreal issue i have with pretty much any community as its easy to forget there is a silent minority that sees things completely differently.
This affects like 70% of the active userbase
 
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