Sprites The Tropics (Alternate Jungle)

JUICEB0X said:
Called it! He should have a vanity drop, because Dr. Bones has one.
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He does?
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Wow you seem to have dedicated a lot of effort to this... You have some lovely sprites

Unfortunately I can't really support the entirety of this as I feel it goes way too far considering the Jungle's prominent role through the game which far exceeds what really any other suggestion (I had the same problem with the River) And I don't feel that alternates are a good idea in the first place as some areas still haven't been fleshed out fully in the first place.
One major flaw that stands out is in your rush to support throwing damage you removed the main mage armor for prehardmode and gave no replacement

The other thing that really bothers me is that you are replacing NPC's and liquids which could create problems as they need to be able to interact considering a player could import resources from another world. (Also it would make me very sad if we couldn't import everything! I like to bring every biome to one world and this suggestion couldn't be fully brought over... It also dawns on me that at some point these interactions would likely overwhelm the poor devs(remember that each introduction involves a factorial dependence).

That said I could see your suggestions used for a completely separate Mod... I think you have pretty much replaced everything in the game entirely... 0_o
 
Dragrath said:
Unfortunately I can't really support the entirety of this as I feel it goes way too far considering the Jungle's prominent role through the game which far exceeds what really any other suggestion (I had the same problem with the River) And I don't feel that alternates are a good idea in the first place as some areas still haven't been fleshed out fully in the first place.
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I don't understand how you mean. What is not fleshed out? If you're referring to existing content; I can't make alternates to content that doesn't exist yet. Just because there might be future content for some specific portion of the game, doesn't mean we can't suggest something for that potion of the game. Otherwise... why bother to suggest new types of blocks if the devs probably haven't finished adding blocks to the game? Why suggest wiring changes if their work on wires probably hasn't finished. What you're proposing here is that I only make suggestions surrounding content of the game that the devs are guaranteed to be finished with and have no plans of touching ever again. That's information that is 1. privy specifically to the development team and 2. a shifting foundation; you never know when they may reconsider their position on something (example: water mechanics).

That said, because there is an alternate; there is precedent to make suggestions for them. (Thank you Crimson)

Dragrath said:
One major flaw that stands out is in your rush to support throwing damage you removed the main mage armor for prehardmode and gave no replacement
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It was not removed. Jungle Armor still exists. Just not if the Tropics spawn. It's not impossible to reload a world for specific content. Or to bring in content. And I certainly didn't "rush" to support Throwing damage. I deliberately scaled back on on Magic for the purpose of the suggestion. There are 3 major reasons for this;
  1. Throwing damage is hardly supported in the base game
  2. The game is not restricted to damage types by any sort of class system / players can use any weapon they want
  3. Existing content is not removed or replaced and can still be brought into a world that has spawned The Tropics
Also; part of my disclaimer applies here:
Izzabelle said:
Lastly; as an alternate (and not an expansion or replacement), The Tropics does not assume to redefine class balance. I'm sorry if your favorite class isn't represented well in the suggestion. If The Jungle represented all classes equally, so too would The Tropics.
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Alternates are about a varying game-play experience; not 100% re-skins. But if you want to believe that the content of the world is locked into Tropics content, then your next point doesn't make any sense...

Dragrath said:
The other thing that really bothers me is that you are replacing NPC's and liquids which could create problems as they need to be able to interact considering a player could import resources from another world. (Also it would make me very sad if we couldn't import everything! I like to bring every biome to one world and this suggestion couldn't be fully brought over... It also dawns on me that at some point these interactions would likely overwhelm the poor devs(remember that each introduction involves a factorial dependence).
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I didn't replace any NPCs in this suggestion. Nor did I replace any NPCs in The River. And after talking to Cenx... I don't believe -- if I did replace them -- it would be that big of a deal, assuming I provided all the necessary alternate content; such as dialogue and item inventory.

The liquids are a limitation; it's true. But that doesn't mean I need to stop suggesting them (why is that always so touchy for people?). I suggest alternate liquids as a means to paint a concept. It's up to the devs, not anyone else, to dismiss content in that regard (also says so in the Suggestion Forum rules). I don't rightly care if the liquids can't be considered when it comes to proposing an alternate -- because it's only there to help forum-goers realize a concept as opposed to demanding actual change from the devs. To limit my suggestions because the devs are about to reach their cap for something in the game's engine is a weak premise. When they DO reach the cap; then I will stop suggesting any kind of alternate liquid.

Otherwise, it's like the first point; why suggest anything pertaining to a portion of the game if 1. the devs might reach the engine cap of that content soon and 2. the devs might not be done with that portion of the game anyways. Do you realize, by that logic, how many threads (and possibly boards) forum staff might as well just shut down now? You'd be hard-pressed to support ANY suggestion with that attitude.

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You're absolutely welcome not to support The Tropics (or any of my suggestions for that matter)

Just say you're not interested, you don't support, and walk away.

But "this"... your reasoning -- I find it to be based on a very poor foundation. If that's what you want to stick with though; by all means go ahead. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
 
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Izzabelle said:
I don't understand how you mean. What is not fleshed out? If you're referring to existing content; I can't make alternates to content that doesn't exist yet. Just because there might be future content for some specific portion of the game, doesn't mean we can't suggest something for that potion of the game. Otherwise... why bother to suggest new types of blocks if the devs probably haven't finished adding blocks to the game? Why suggest wiring changes if their work on wires probably hasn't finished. What you're proposing here is that I only make suggestions surrounding content of the game that the devs are guaranteed to be finished with and have no plans of touching ever again. That's information that is 1. privy specifically to the development team and 2. a shifting foundation; you never know when they may reconsider their position on something (example: water mechanics).

That said, because there is an alternate; there is precedent to make suggestions for them. (Thank you Crimson)
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Wow I can't understand how you jumped from here to there... I never argued that becuse something doesn't exist that we shouldn't add a suggestion. That would be fallacious logic. The resonse there was more in regards to admitting a personal bias. It is my biased view that sugestions should be done to give the devs inspiration towards improving weaker elements of the game rather than for fun. That shoudl have had no bearing on the rest of the reply I'm sorry if I confused you there... (I will probably remove that bit sorry :( )
Izzabelle said:
It was not removed. Jungle Armor still exists. Just not if the Tropics spawn. It's not impossible to reload a world for specific content. Or to bring in content. And I certainly didn't "rush" to support Throwing damage. I deliberately scaled back on on Magic for the purpose of the suggestion. There are 3 major reasons for this;
  1. Throwing damage is hardly supported in the base game
  2. The game is not restricted to damage types by any sort of class system / players can use any weapon they want
  3. Existing content is not removed or replaced and can still be brought into a world that has spawned The Tropics
Also; part of my disclaimer applies here:


Alternates are about a varying game-play experience; not 100% re-skins. But if you want to believe that the content of the world is locked into Tropics content, then your next point doesn't make any sense...


I didn't replace any NPCs in this suggestion. Nor did I replace any NPCs in The River. And after talking to Cenx... I don't believe -- if I did replace them -- it would be that big of a deal, assuming I provided all the necessary alternate content; such as dialogue and item inventory.

The liquids are a limitation; it's true. But that doesn't mean I need to stop suggesting them (why is that always so touchy for people?). I suggest alternate liquids as a means to paint a concept. It's up to the devs, not anyone else, to dismiss content in that regard (also says so in the Suggestion Forum rules). I don't rightly care if the liquids can't be considered when it comes to proposing an alternate -- because it's only there to help forum-goers realize a concept as opposed to demanding actual change from the devs. To limit my suggestions because they devs are about to reach their cap for something in the game's engine is a weak premise. When they DO reach the cap; then I will stop suggesting any kind of alternate liquid.

Otherwise, it's like the first point; why suggest anything pertaining to a portion of the game if 1. the devs might reach the engine cap of that content soon and 2. the devs might not be done with that portion of the game anyways. Do you realize, by that logic, how many threads (and possibly boards) forum staff might as well just shut down now? You'd be hard-pressed to support ANY suggestion with that attitude.

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You're absolutely welcome not to support The Tropics (or any of my suggestions for that matter)

Just say you're not interested, you don't support, and walk away.

But "this"... your reasoning -- I find it to be based on a very poor foundation. If that's what you want to stick with though; by all means go ahead. I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
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Wow... I was hoping for a more constructive debate not an outright retaliatory attack... I am sorry if I offended I wanted to explain why I couldn't support such a well fleshed out suggestion in explicit detail however it seems my feedback was misread.... You have some great ideas I actually love the boss designs however there feels like a lack of cohesiveness with this suggestion primarily with mythical creatures being mixed up with prehistoric ones it just feels weird to me.

Really as long as an alternate can be brought over from another world I am completely fine with them the issue if there is one her would be that currently wall based biomes can't be artificially created or spread. (This is a problem for The dungeon, spider caves, the underground desert, Lizahard temple and would be shared with your pretty cool spaceship alternate. I really just wish there was a way to make the replaced walls hostile again...)

I know a player is free to go between worlds but it is generally accepted that a playthrough should be balanced around the presumption that they will stick to one world as the average terraria player tends to focus on one class primarily using whatever weapon type caught their eye.

Alternates are indeed alternate and should have their own style the point is every play style should be viable.

My worries progression//gear wise can be summed up in the following. The desert gives a late prehardmode throwing armor(Fossil), You add another throwing armor by removing(from in world availability) the late prehardmode mage armor while adding another throwing armor. Thus mage has only meteor(which has a weapon specific set bonus for the space gun only) Moreover you moved boomerang type weapons to throwing(one of Melee's major weapon types)

This makes the throwing class imbalanced in the opposite direction as before as mages have nothing to compensate and thus magic is made unviable for beating the WOF if you are a player who made a world with the tropics.

It is fine to take away one avenue as long as another is given. My issue is entirely that you didn't give them an alternative. (I suppose that would be rectified by some other alternative?)
 
Dragrath said:
Wow... I was hoping for a more constructive debate not an outright retaliatory attack... I am sorry if I offended I wanted to explain why I couldn't support such a well fleshed out suggestion in explicit detail however it seems my feedback was misread....
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I won't debate meaningless discussion. It's what the disclaimer is for in the first place.

Dragrath said:
You have some great ideas I actually love the boss designs however there feels like a lack of cohesiveness with this suggestion primarily with mythical creatures being mixed up with prehistoric ones it just feels weird to me.
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This game has Martians with Tripods, Lovecraftian mythos, undead, sentient slimes, mechanized worm bosses, Greek mythology, and rainbow cats -- to name a FEW. I don't think cohesiveness at this point is any means to doubt any suggestion.

Dragrath said:
I know a player is free to go between worlds but it is generally accepted that a playthrough should be balanced around the presumption that they will stick to one world as the average terraria player tends to focus on one class primarily using whatever weapon type caught their eye.
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I know this; but also -- it's not my job to balance. The balance provided, again fits part of my disclaimer:
Izzabelle said:
Balance is a non-issue; the numbers are provided to elicit an idea of what values an object could have. If the not-set-in-stone-imaginary numbers upset you, you're welcome to suggest other numbers, but they have no bearing on the suggestion changed or not.
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I don't have to provide any balance. I do it for the concept. It's not a requirement. Those numbers and descriptions have been painstakingly put there for forum-goer benefit, not mine.

Dragrath said:
Alternates are indeed alternate and should have their own style the point is every play style should be viable.
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The game doesn't adhere to this; some "classes" are more balanced than others. Summoner, for example, is still a lacking class based on the lack of available armors, weapons, and accessories when compared to Melee (or any other "class" with the exception of Throwing). It's progression is sill one of the more difficult play-styles in the game, almost forcing you to rely on other weapon types.

If the game made every line of "class-play" viable, then I would too in my suggestions. It does not. Thus I do not. As it again states in my disclaimer.

Dragrath said:
My worries progression//gear wise can be summed up in the following. The desert gives a late prehardmode throwing armor(Fossil), You add another throwing armor by removing(from in world availability) the late prehardmode mage armor while adding another throwing armor. Thus mage has only meteor(which has a weapon specific set bonus for the space gun only)
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The easiest counter argument is this exact same thing, only swap Mage for Throwing and for the base game. The point is moot because the game itself is not entirely balanced around damage types or classes. A quote from The River discussion sums this up too:
Izzabelle said:
If you feel melee, ranged, or summoner armor requires a set at the time of Underworld progression, or that pre-hardmode requires a rebalance in armor availability and quantity -- you are welcome to make your own suggestion(s) for it.
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I encourage you, if you have a problem with class balance, to make your own balance thread regarding it -- and not expect my alternate of an already imbalanced biome in the game to share your ideal balance.

Moreover you moved boomerang type weapons to throwing(one of Melee's major weapon types)
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Wrong. I made it so that SOME boomerang type weapons deal Throwing damage instead of their typical damage types. Not ALL. Not even ALL in this suggestion. I did something similar with The Glade -- see Rider's Sword.

Dragrath said:
This makes the throwing class imbalanced in the opposite direction as before as mages have nothing to compensate and thus magic is made unviable for beating the WOF if you are a player who made a world with the tropics.
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Good thing nothing forces you to fight the WOF using only magic gear. This relates to the "issue" you raised a few points up. If anything, this makes Throwing more in line with current game balance and Mage classes less in line -- which given that it's an alternate and NOT a replacement; it actually balances out the game in regards to the overall balance across available content.

Dragrath said:
It is fine to take away one avenue as long as another is given. My issue is entirely that you didn't give them an alternative. (I suppose that would be rectified by some other alternative?)
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Again. When the base game does this, I will have no problem doing so in my suggestions.

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Like I said; I don't find this reasoning to be particularly engaging. I will NOT limit my suggestions or content to classes or damage types when there is no requirement for me to do so. And I will not pursue to balance all damage types each and every time I encounter damage types within the content; that would mean I would have to create 4 armor sets in regards to Jungle Armor (5 if you include Throwing), 4-5 in regards to Shroomite, 4-5 in regards to Chlorophyte, etc etc. And that's just the supporting armor; then there's weapons. That's an undertaking for a "Terraria Damage Type Balance" thread. Not an Alternate Jungle thread.

I appreciate and understand your concern for this whimsical non-balance. It was an "issue" raised in The River. Which is why it's part of the disclaimer now. But if this is what's preventing you from supporting the Tropics, I again find the foundation of it weak, considering the game's current imbalance -- as what you are essentially asking me to do is either hinder my creativity to fulfill your idea of balance (when there is no requirement to do so) or redefine the entirety of the game's balance with each new alternate. This isn't going to happen.

So by all means. Don't support the Tropics. It's not going to bother me. Because the alternative required for gaining your support is something I'm just not going to do. No offense.
 
Holy :red:. That's a lot of stuff.

My only problem is that I'm a dinosaur accuracy nut, so the raptor, pterosaur, and "ankylodon" make me sad.
 
5raptorboy said:
My only problem is that I'm a dinosaur accuracy nut, so the raptor, pterosaur, and "ankylodon" make me sad.
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I took liberties because it's a game. I came across all the appropriate naming by period, type, genus, etc etc -- but they're pixels, not dinosaurs. So who cares.
 
I know it was just because you were taking liberties. I'm just joking around, I don't think it's an actual detriment to the suggestion.
 
5raptorboy said:
I know it was just because you were taking liberties. I'm just joking around, I don't think it's an actual detriment to the suggestion.
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I get you -- I had wondered about doing traditional or accurate names or just winging it. My final decision came to just winging it when I read a dinosaurs name that was something like adophnumopsynoninsis (spelling intentionally butchered).
 
Wow. Just...wow. All I can say that describes the amazingness of this suggestion. Congratulations. Support!:D:)


Also, is Hunter Pelt hunting humans a reference to The Most Dangerous Game? We just started reading that in class and that's exactly what the villain is: a huntsman grown tired of the usual game and focuses on the deadliest of them all: humans.
 
KirbyMaster500 said:
Wow. Just...wow. All I can say that describes the amazingness of this suggestion. Congratulations. Support!:D:)


Also, is Hunter Pelt hunting humans a reference to The Most Dangerous Game? We just started reading that in class and that's exactly what the villain is: a huntsman grown tired of the usual game and focuses on the deadliest of them all: humans.
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It's a reference to Jumanji -- which I'm sure also is a reference to Most Dangerous Game -- which is also awesome :)
 
I read through the Starship again and I realized that most of the weapons and overall drops seem to be stealth-related. Is that what you were aiming for? I'm not a stealth character, but it does fit the reptilian aliens being huntsmen, which is justifiable.
 
KirbyMaster500 said:
I read through the Starship again and I realized that most of the weapons and overall drops seem to be stealth-related. Is that what you were aiming for? I'm not a stealth character, but it does fit the reptilian aliens being huntsmen, which is justifiable.
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The only thing stealth about the Starship should be Spectrumite armors (granted by not moving, reduces chance for enemies to target you).

Everything else (save for the Apex) doesn't pertain to stealth at all.
 
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