Journey's End 1.4.4: Balance Feedback and Discussion Thread

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Regarding the Phoenix Blaster change... I think PB should be sped up, even if it comes at the cost of some of its damage. I know that the damage increase helps it defeat HM defense, but I'd gladly take a decrease in effectiveness in HM and even a slight compromise in the balance department if it makes PB more fun to use.
 
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I have a small suggestion: for any items that do not have autoswing by default, increase their usetime by 1 when the autoswing option is turned on. My understanding of how autoswing works is that after each swing ends, the game starts the next swing on the very next frame, whereas if you are manually inputting clicks this isn't possible, since the game won't accept clicks until at least the next frame after the swing ends.

I know the autoswing option is supposed to be an accessibility feature, but this would help people who want to use that feature feel less like they're cheating. Also, it would make the Feral Claws' autoswing feature actually do something, since it would still give true autoswing that saves 1 frame per swing. A small difference, but still.
 
CellarDoor96 said:
I have a small suggestion: for any items that do not have autoswing by default, increase their usetime by 1 when the autoswing option is turned on. My understanding of how autoswing works is that after each swing ends, the game starts the next swing on the very next frame, whereas if you are manually inputting clicks this isn't possible, since the game won't accept clicks until at least the next frame after the swing ends.

I know the autoswing option is supposed to be an accessibility feature, but this would help people who want to use that feature feel less like they're cheating. Also, it would make the Feral Claws' autoswing feature actually do something, since it would still give true autoswing that saves 1 frame per swing. A small difference, but still.
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I really like this idea, it leaves autoswing as an accessibility feature while decreasing the dps increase obtained simply by enabling it. While it's technically possible, I don't think there's anyone who can always click again the very frame when a weapon becomes usable, so adding a 1 frame delay when using the autofire toggle with non-autofire weapons isn't going to hurt anyone.
 
Cazmatism said:
172 is 202% the base damage of current terra blade, that is 85


I very clearly showed you how the new terra blade got downright buffed in true melee. You are either talking about a whipstacking setup or your testing has been flawed. If these readings have been taken from dps meter, then I'm extremely confident on the latter. Your tests that you show here are

That's exactly what I said

The new beam can have actual pillar cc thanks to the size of its terra wave, the old one will not often hit over one enemy outside of solar pillar, and stardust pillar if you have cells stacked up,
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Youre full of it, i literally just tested it in numerous situations and the true melee always did worse. I had a perfectly identical character with identical melee-focused builds. The only thing the new one has is the projectile allows for more hits and so more reliable single-target dps with the projectile cus its hard to miss. True melee simply isnt as good, i did them side by side and the old one did better. Yeah it can do a little better against the pillars cus it can hit the projectiles easier, but its worse at everything else. This is a nerf to its true melee. Like i said, this is counterintuitive to every change, why would i go close when it provides even less benefit now? The projectile does better and does what the old one did but more reliably, and i dont have to risk getting torn up by enemies. The new one has the same problem the old one had of being projectile-focused but even more exaggerated because now the projectile-only dps is more reliable and the melee dps is dramatically worse
 
OblivionAXiS said:
I really like this idea, it leaves autoswing as an accessibility feature while decreasing the dps increase obtained simply by enabling it. While it's technically possible, I don't think there's anyone who can always click again the very frame when a weapon becomes usable, so adding a 1 frame delay when using the autofire toggle with non-autofire weapons isn't going to hurt anyone.
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Well it's a bit more than that - I'm pretty sure that because of the way autoswing works, even if you were capable of clicking every single frame, an item without autoswing would still not be as fast as that same item with autoswing enabled.

My understanding (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that this is how the use cycle breaks down for autoswing and non-autoswing items:

Autoswing:
Frame 0 - Game registers click
Frame 1 - Use animation begins
Frame X where X is useTime - Use animation reaches last frame
Frame X+1 - If mouse is being held, next use animation begins

Non-Autoswing:
Frame 0 - Game registers click
Frame 1 - Use animation begins
Frame X where X is useTime - Use animation reaches last frame
Frame X+1 - Use animation ends. Game can now register next click
Frame X+2 - If click was registered, next use animation begins

So basically, for non-autoswing items the animation has to return to a "neutral" state (i.e. the item in the character's hand disappears) before you can click again. Autoswing items skip the "neutral" frame and just start the next animation right away. So unless I'm wrong and this is not how it works, no matter how fast you click it's actually physically impossible to use a non-autoswing item as fast as an autoswing item with the same use time.
 
@TheWith3r129

I think we need to stop measuring weapons in terms of "Pure DPS" and look at other things, such as range, and AoE.

The new TB hits a MUCH larger area, including behind you which the old version never did, and not only that, but a decent range at that. You can stand in the middle of a bunch of crap, swing once, and hit several enemies behind you, several enemies above you, and anything remotely in front of you with a single swing.

The old TB could never do that, whatsoever. It had a normal sword-size hitbox in front of you, and the narrow beam which would only pierce twice and then it disappeared.

That little number that pops up on screen is not the be-all and end-all of Terraria.

And remember: a missed attack does zero damage. Therefore, a weapon that is easier to hit your enemy with, will do more damage for most people who aren't "the best of the best". I know everybody likes to make out like they are MLG Pros, but for the rest of us, the new TB will put out more damage overall because of far fewer missed attacks. And I know people don't like to hear this whatsoever but the game was not designed around MLG Pros. I'm sorry, such players are a minority and the game was not catered to them.

Such players can take their spreadsheets and go on over to tModLoader if they don't like it.

@CellarDoor96 :

To be honest, I really don't understand why we can't just make everything (that's meant to be a weapon and not, say, staff of regrowth and other items like it) auto-swing and adjust use times accordingly.

Have the devs ever explained to us why they didn't simply just do that instead of going through the trouble of adding an accessibility option?

Has there ever been any players who go "gee, you know, it'd be nice if this weapon wasn't auto-swing..." ?
 
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Xylia said:
To be honest, I really don't understand why we can't just make everything (that's meant to be a weapon and not, say, staff of regrowth and other items like it) auto-swing and adjust use times accordingly.

Have the devs ever explained to us why they didn't simply just do that instead of going through the trouble of adding an accessibility option?
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It would be extremely time consuming, the decision to make the change was made very late in the update (after I had already finished 99% of my balance work) and at the end of the day, the game has non-autoswing for a reason, and Red doesn't want to remove it. The accessibility option was a compromise, not a balance change.

It is not plausible with my timeframe to attempt a full game wide rebalance around all autoswing right now, nor was that even approved in the first place. So this is what we have to work with.
 
More feedback on melee weapons:
  1. I really liked the Trimerang when I got it, but it feels very short-lived for the effort required to get all the pieces early; I think that may partially be due to me playing on a Corruption world though as I suspect it would have a much better matchup against the Brain of Cthulhu than the Eater of Worlds.
  2. The Light's Bane is good, but I think its tooltip should mention that it now ignores 5 Defense (which wasn't in the patch notes either) and that critical hits make the slashes bigger.
  3. The Blade of Grass feels a lot better now with the poison buff; I think it's in a good spot given how early you can potentially get it.
  4. The Starfury needs a nerf or maybe a rework imo; the star is not only a great exploration tool but also an incredibly safe form of attack, making the sword itself feel like an afterthought. Overall this patch has tried to move away from the "glorified bayonet" style of melee weapons, so the Starfury sticks out even more.
  5. The Night's Edge finally feels like the ultimate preHardmode weapon, but at the cost of making the Dark Lance feel redundant. While the Dark Lance can potentially deal more dps at the right distance, the Night's Edge has similar overall reach but covers a much wider area and autoswings.
  6. The Hardmode Ore Swords/Spears still feel lackluster, but I think that's mainly down to the sorts of bosses you're fighting at this point. The Twins in particular having the aggravating habit of maintaining a distance too far for most "true melee" weapons, getting too close to Skeletron Prime risks getting caught in a headspin, and Queen Slime still tends to be surrounded by projectiles and minions. If anything, giving the Ore Spears more reach might help some.
  7. On the other hand, the Bananarangs becoming a feasible option is a huge improvement; it gives melee a relatively accessible ranged option that's great for Queen Slime.
  8. While I think the Chain Guillotines were already one of the best melee weapons within their tier, that's more due to how few decent options there were so them getting more reach is very welcome.
  9. The KO Cannon, however, is now just a much worse Chain Guillotines. While it's likely more accessible even on Corruption worlds, it's so much weaker as to be effectively worthless.
  10. The Light Discs are upgraded Bananarangs available from the one boss melee can comfortably kill in this tier, which is good even if it means the Bananarangs themselves expire too quickly.
  11. Excalibur is another sword during a time when swords just don't cut it.
  12. Gungnir has usable range, but I think it's still overall not as worthwhile as the Light Discs.
I should mention that I've been intentionally avoiding yoyos, because especially at this stage in progression I feel like they're overwhelmingly better than anything else melee has. The Amarok can be obtained easily by killing enemies in the relatively safe Snow biome, has high range and with the Yoyo Bag acceptable AoE, is easily aimed, has high dps, and was even buffed this patch to boot.
 
Alaron said:
Excalibur is another sword during a time when swords just don't cut it.
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I kinda thought the opposite.

In my current playthrough, I've killed the Destroyer, but not the other two Mechs yet and I really wanted Flame Wings, so I'm farming Red Devils until I get the stupid feather (60 kills, blarrrgh lol).

I have never seen a reason to use Excalibur, ever in the past but it is now my main weapon. I love it. Sure, it doesn't have the slash that the Night's Edge does, but the +30 damage makes up for it.

Now, obviously, once I kill the other 2 mechs (after I get my wings), it's off to spawn a Solar Eclipse and I will most certainly be using a Death's Sickle, but hey. Excalibur is kinda necessary to get the Terra Blade which I will obviously want, so ...

I think it's okay. It's not the most powerfulest awesomeest AoE weapon around, but it's fine the way it is. You're going to make one anyway, and why not make one and carry it around for a general purpose big AoE melee weapon?

I can't think of a reason not to. /shrug

I should mention that I've been intentionally avoiding yoyos, because especially at this stage in progression I feel like they're overwhelmingly better than anything else melee has. The Amarok can be obtained easily by killing enemies in the relatively safe Snow biome, has high range and with the Yoyo Bag acceptable AoE, is easily aimed, has high dps, and was even buffed this patch to boot.
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To be honest, with those HUGE slashes that the Night's Edge and Excalibur has... I've been scratching my head wondering why I'd want to use a yo-yo. Maybe on a boss where I want some distance between me and the enemy, I guess? Maybe if I want to cower in a box and kill stuff without taking damage, perhaps?

But for general purpose, as someone who loved yo-yos in the past, I've not felt the need to use one. Not because I'm intentionally avoiding them, but more because of the huge circle radius of those sword slashes, lol. It's fun, whoosh whoosh whoosh everything around you gets chopped to bits. No aiming needed.

I will say that at first (I even made posts here as such), that I was unsure about the melee rework, but after actually playing I have to give a standing ovation. These new sword animations are quite addictive and awesome. I was very unsure at first, and was willing to give Re-Logic the benefit of the doubt, and I'm glad I did as it turned out way better than I had hoped.
 
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Xylia said:
To be honest, with those HUGE slashes that the Night's Edge and Excalibur has... I've been scratching my head wondering why I'd want to use a yo-yo. Maybe on a boss where I want some distance between me and the enemy, I guess? Maybe if I want to cower in a box and kill stuff without taking damage, perhaps?
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Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but a lot of my feedback about the pre- and mid- Mech weapons is focused on the bosses, since I've always felt that this was easily the hardest stage of the game for melee. Against Skeletron Prime and Queen Slime getting close enough for a true melee weapon is an easy way to get boxed in, while the Twins will actively stay out of range. Excalibur in particular isn't going to be used on much *except* Skeletron Prime and the Twins by a lot of people, as the'yre the only things standing between it and the upgrade to True Excalibur.
 
Alaron said:
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but a lot of my feedback about the pre- and mid- Mech weapons is focused on the bosses, since I've always felt that this was easily the hardest stage of the game for melee. Against Skeletron Prime and Queen Slime getting close enough for a true melee weapon is an easy way to get boxed in, while the Twins will actively stay out of range. Excalibur in particular isn't going to be used on much *except* Skeletron Prime and the Twins by a lot of people, as the'yre the only things standing between it and the upgrade to True Excalibur.
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That's fair enough.

I don't like to gauge weapons purely by boss usage though: you spend maybe 5% of your in-game time fighting bosses, and the rest of the game doing stuff like exploring, hunting for materials, etc.

As a general purpose weapon, the Excalibur is a damn fine weapon and it absolutely shreds normal stuff out in the world. It's OK for a weapon to be poor against bosses, but good against normal enemies.

This encourages weapon variety. For example, I would make a Megashark for Prime and Twins, but I wouldn't use the Megashark for fighting normal enemies, because a sword is just... easier and in many cases, faster.

I think this time, I might use that Yelets I got for Twins and Prime... not sure though, Yo-Yos and the green eye's 2nd form don't mix that well. Yelets is great against Prime, though.

Maybe might try the new Flamethrower, I hear that's awesome now.

EDIT: So, the Flamethrower was a little under-performing on Prime, sadly. I mean, it's do-able, but it's going to take a lot of gel. 200-250, easy, and time is also a factor, as it was almost 2AM when I finished the fight. I imagine it would work nice on regular enemies, though!

I also used the Excalibur on a Pre-Plantera Solar Eclipse and it performed quite well, held its own easily. And now that I have a Death Sickle, I have a clear path to the Terra Blade, as I can use the Sickle to kill Plantera, get some tablets, and then get the Terra Blade.
 
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I feel like melee has an answer to almost everything the game can throw at you except super far off-screen distance, close range is covered by most weapons you'd think of like the terrablade swords, mid range is covered by yo-yos, and the edge of the screen is covered by boomerangs/beam-swords depending on how far you are in the game. melee has weapons that suck in some situations but work in others, kind of a "jack of one trade + two other jacks for each trade".
 
Small feedback for upside-down worlds.

Would it be possible to have the Demon Conch and Shellphone (Underworld) teleport to the Surface? Currently, both the Demon Conch and Magic Mirror teleport to nearly the same location in said worlds.
 
Leinfors said:
I'm considering some adjustments to Starfury, but want to avoid kneejerk reactions. A change from 2x to 1x is about a 25% reduction to its total DPS output, which is quite a sledgehammer nerf in my book. I'd rather take it slow and look at the options. A change from 2x to 1.5x, or maybe just a slight overall damage reduction may be more appropriate, and I still would need to get it approved.
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Fair, thinking about it now that would probably make the weapon much worse overall. But, I don't think a slight damage reduction would be the best to go for. The weapon itself is INCREDIBLY reliant on the star projectile; and while it is called "Starfury" for a reason, I still think the weapon could use more incentive to get in close with the blade itself, because otherwise the weapon feels very much like a throwing melee weapon that just so happens to be attached to a sword.

I think nerfing the star damage itself, and then buffing the sword with some extra size and a bit of overall damage to it would be a decent idea. It's a lighter change, but it would still get the job done.

But, you could also do a light rework of the weapon and give the Starfury an on-hit effect to summon stars, but nerf the damage multiplier from x2 to x1 to remedy such a massive change? That way the weapon incentives getting up close with it, and the star it can summon through normal swinging compliments the weapon rather than just overtake it. This way the weapon still works well and deals good damage, but stays consistent with other swords in the fact that you need to risk taking contact damage to really get some juicy damage going.

Leinfors said:
I'm not sure where you are drawing this conclusion from. Ultimately, Blade of Grass's DPS went UP, not down. Yes, its direct damage per hit was reduced, but it hits 50% more often ,now has boosted Poison DoT and the leaf projectile is added DPS as well that stacks with the primary sword's damage.
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Yeah. I looked more into the weapon after having used it for a while in a melee playthrough i've been doing with some friends. That's just a mistake on my part, my bad.



Other than those, I had a few more things I noticed in terms of changes in this update. Mainly, why was Pearlwood Sword the only item to receive a buff? The rest of the items got zero changes, so it feels weird seeing only that weapon get any changes whatsoever. I was confused by it so much that I ended up making a suggestion thread about it, along with a few other ideas for the pearlwood stuff. It's a bit more updated than what I have listed here so maybe check that out for some of the more balanced stuff. I just wanna mention the proposed changes I came up with for pearlwood there, mainly because it just feels weird that only the sword ended up getting any changes.

Here's my proposed changes:
Pearlwood Sword (Buff)
- Now has a hallowed slash effect much like the Excalibur. This gives it some increased range and more coverage from behind.
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Pearlwood Bow (Buff)
- Damage increased from 12 to 24
- Usetime reduced from 20 to 16
- Wooden Arrows fired from this bow now turn into Holy Arrows(?)
- Is now autoswing
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Pearlwood Hammer (Buff)
- Damage increased from 10 to 26
- Usetime reduced from 29 to 24
- Hammer power increased from 55% to 70%
- Tool speed reduced from 19 to 13
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Pearlwood Armor (Buff/Rework)
- Total Defense increased from 2/3/2 to 5/6/5, providing a total defense of 16.
- Now provides a slight mobility increase on each piece of armor. (More specifically, each piece grants 15% increased movement speed, increases your jump speed by 0.9 tiles, jump duration by 0.5, and max safe fall distance by 5. Basically each piece acts as a nerfed Moon Lord Legs combined for ~1.5x the movement.)
- Set bonus has been reworked to grant the player a unicorn dash! The unicorn dash has around the same movement as the Tabi, and also has the bashing functionality of the Shield of Cthulhu, dealing ~75 damage on bashing. (This dash would most likely leave behind a little rainbow trail effect for visual purposes)
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Anyways, other than those and some more nitpicky stuff here and there (which I might end up talking about in some later comment) I was happy with most of the balance changes. Glad that Flamethrower is finally an ACTUAL weapon, and that melee doesn't feel too awkward anymore!

@Xylia
I don't like to gauge weapons purely by boss usage though: you spend maybe 5% of your in-game time fighting bosses, and the rest of the game doing stuff like exploring, hunting for materials, etc.
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That 5% you spend is the most important 5% of the playthrough, though. Sure, some weapons are still useful for inbetween bosses, but at the end of the day some weapons aren't getting you past important progression points. The most those weapons might be useful for general purpose are getting you a viable weapon for a boss battle, lol
 
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People here really think anyone can have perfect accuracy while using the old Terra Blade, don't they remember people also play on mobile and with controllers?

The new Terra Blade is universally BETTER and EASIER to use at its full potential, that's it. From Events like the Solar Eclipse, the Old One's Army, the Pumpkin and Frost Moons, the Martian Invasion and the Pillars, to Bosses like Golem, Empress of Light, Duke Fishron, Lunatic Cultist and, if you try hard enough, Moon Lord. (Though I admit there are better Weapons for him, but it was fun to try. Still, as I was playing with a controller, it was far easier to land hits than with the Daybreak and its DPS was higher than the Solar Eruption.)

The TB also firing the projectile in every SWING instead of an actual cooldown ALSO increases its DPS when using high Melee Speed builds, heck, even Critical Strike builds. I used a combination of both and I NEVER had an easier time with the Events and Bosses I mentioned earlier (minus Moon Lord), atleast when playing Melee.
 
Perhaps WoF needs to be buffed? With a proper NE facetank setup, it's possible to defeat it in under a minute with minimal effort.
 
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Finally finished my multiplayer run with friends in Master. Was actively tanking for a while, went full DPS setup for Celestial since the Terra Blade we made ended up coming out Legendary.

If you want old Terra Blade back for the option of letting someone swing their weapon at a specific angle for three minutes to spawn kill Duke Fishron, then sure, whatever, I respect the opinion, but the new Terra Blade is patently obscene and incredibly fun to use. I didn't even bother making Solar gear as it felt like Daybreak and Sunfury would have been straight downgrades to the sheer amount of flexibility that Terra Blade has now.

Using 1.4.4 Terra Blade has easily been the most fun I've ever had with melee in 1500 hours.

If you want a "true" melee experience, go use Psycho Knife.


I still think Ankh Shield needs to be re-addressed at tiers past Plantera for things like Venom and Cursed Flames, though.
 
SkyanUltra said:
That 5% you spend is the most important 5% of the playthrough, though. Sure, some weapons are still useful for inbetween bosses, but at the end of the day some weapons aren't getting you past important progression points. The most those weapons might be useful for general purpose are getting you a viable weapon for a boss battle, lol
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I "get" what you're saying there, but yet... I still don't like boiling the game down to just bosses. Yes, sure, the bosses are the "big moments", but if we take that logic just a bit further, then you're also saying that golf, kites, fishing, pets, aesthetics, building, half of the NPCs, and OOA is also "useless" because it doesn't help you in fighting bosses.
 
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