My gripe with DD2, or why 1.3.4 was a mistake

Lord Garak

Retinazer
Many commonly question this assertion, so I will finally put it in writing.

Terraria has an extremely delicate balance system which has already been strained by the many updates since its genesis. 1.3.4 brought absolute havoc to this balance. 8 new armor sets were added. Half of these are unnecessary as they are just earlier/later tiers of the same type, and bloat the DD content. The remaining 4 are still a terrible fit for Terraria, as if we are considering T3 the "true" DD armor sets, they are LUDICROUSLY overpowered and make basically anything a complete joke, especially the now-legendary Knight regeneration boost. They also each power up a specific one of 4 "traps" introduced. These traps are boring standard type stuff and brought with them a terrible change: now only 1 sentry can be active at a time. That alone wouldn't be so bad if the sentry pool wasn't (I will continue to use the term) bloated by the new traps. These also come with armor specific accessories which do nothing but boost the potency of each armor. All of this content is incredibly dull and lacks any identity. If Ocram doesn't belong in the vision of Terraria, this certainly doesn't. It almost feels like an entirely different game. That's not to mention the complete lack of consistency in art style; absolutely none of it matches the rest of Terraria, and most of the color is sapped out in favor of dull maroon and beige.

Summoner is a much more vibrant class if one ignores the Tavernkeep entirely, and the class' balance and progression path is compromised the second one gains any of the items from the DD event. They don't belong in Terraria; it's like trying to super-glue a puzzle piece you found under the couch onto the one you just completed. It won't fit and it's out of place.
 
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I had enough dungeon defenders since the first one. It's a massive nerf fest and I'm surprised this one wasn't nerfed to hell as well. But I simply stopped playing after this sillyness came out.
 
I agree the summoner sets in DD event are out of place feeling. I never realised they were overpowered because I never touched them.

I actually really like the weapons added though
 
I agree the summoner sets in DD event are out of place feeling. I never realised they were overpowered because I never touched them.

I actually really like the weapons added though
The weapons and pets are... okay. I don't think they're as out-of-place as the rest.
 
While I do love that the DD2 armors follow a different stat boost than the other Terraria armors. (no more the generic "same stats as previous tier, but slightly buffed") But I also agree that some of them are brokenly OP, with the notable mention been Valhalla's Knight Chestpiece. (A single chestpiece has THRICE as much health regeneration as the entire Palladium Set bonus, with even the constant damage restriction). I personally like the way that you can combine armor pieces to make something more powerful in one certain stat, at the cost of other stats. So that's why I do like the way the stats are done in the armors.

Moreover, even if the armors are too powerful, you still need to do a lot for it to get them for the fitting tier. The event itself is hard, and for it's tier almost impossible in expert mode. and you need to win that event quite some times if you want to grind for the full set. if that's worth the time, that's up to you. You can kinda compare that with Fishing, but it's more of a challenge.

As for the sentry 'nerf'. I've honestly no problem with it. The only time you'll ever need 2 different sentries at once are the Moon Lord drops, which are pretty much end-game. Besides the DD2 sentries, the only other one's pre-ML are the spider queen staff and the rare frost hydra, wich is already superior over the spider already.
Personally I don't have the feeling the artstyle of the armors, items and weapons are too out-of-place with the rest, perhaps the Squire.

To summarize, I feel a bit neutral/positive about it. It needs balancing, but not too much to make it no longer worth the grind. And if one doesn't like it, then they can also entirely ignore it.
 
Many commonly question this assertion, so I will finally put it in writing.

Terraria has an extremely delicate balance system which has already been strained by the many updates since its genesis. 1.3.4 brought absolute havoc to this balance. 8 new armor sets were added. Half of these are unnecessary as they are just earlier/later tiers of the same type, and bloat the DD content. The remaining 4 are still a terrible fit for Terraria, as if we are considering T3 the "true" DD armor sets, they are LUDICROUSLY overpowered and make basically anything a complete joke, especially the now-legendary Knight regeneration boost. They also each power up a specific one of 4 "traps" introduced. These traps are boring standard type stuff and brought with them a terrible change: now only 1 sentry can be active at a time. That alone wouldn't be so bad if the sentry pool wasn't (I will continue to use the term) bloated by the new traps. These also come with armor specific accessories which do nothing but boost the potency of each armor. All of this content is incredibly dull and lacks any identity. If Ocram doesn't belong in the vision of Terraria, this certainly doesn't. It almost feels like an entirely different game. That's not to mention the complete lack of consistency in art style; absolutely none of it matches the rest of Terraria, and most of the color is sapped out in favor of dull maroon and beige.

Summoner is a much more vibrant class if one ignores the Tavernkeep entirely, and the class' balance and progression path is compromised the second one gains any of the items from the DD event. They don't belong in Terraria, it's like trying to super-glue a puzzle piece you found under the couch onto the puzzle you just completed. It won't fit and it's out of place.

I disagree.

You can have up to 4 sentries active at any time. You may need to explore the newer content a bit more. They are extremely useful for a number of different scenarios. I think the armor set gave a boost to some classes that have been underpowered, and gave more options if you wanted to be a full fledged Summoner. Only beef I have is why aren't some of these items available earlier.

I haven't been around since day one so I can't comment on overall changes over the years but that update would not be on the top of my T to-do wishlist.
 
I disagree.

You can have up to 4 sentries active at any time. You may need to explore the newer content a bit more. They are extremely useful for a number of different scenarios. I think the armor set gave a boost to some classes that have been underpowered, and gave more options if you wanted to be a full fledged Summoner. Only beef I have is why aren't some of these items available earlier.

I haven't been around since day one so I can't comment on overall changes over the years but that update would not be on the top of my T to-do wishlist.
When can you ever have 4 different sentries?

There is no underpowered class

They aren't available earlier because they have nothing to do with the actual game.
 
When can you ever have 4 different sentries? --- Trying playing the game more extensively, it's not hidden. You need to try out the "Joke" armor.

There is no underpowered class -- Maybe not in normal mode or a regular world...

They aren't available earlier because they have nothing to do with the actual game. -- That is your opinion.
 
When can you ever have 4 different sentries? --- Trying playing the game more extensively, it's not hidden. You need to try out the "Joke" armor.

There is no underpowered class -- Maybe not in normal mode or a regular world...

They aren't available earlier because they have nothing to do with the actual game. -- That is your opinion.
Can you actually answer my questions instead of cryptic dodges? It's very rude.

And that isn't an opinion, they were ported in.
 
Can you actually answer my questions instead of cryptic dodges? It's very rude.

And that isn't an opinion, they were ported in.

All DD Helms give you a sentry bonus. Also, you get a set bonus for sentries by wearing a matching suit of DD armor. Tier 1 can get you to 3 + DD accesorry = 4. If I remember right Tier 2 full set gets you +4 sentries, you cap out at 4 so the accessory is damage only bonus.

Underpowered, MY opinion ( The below is assuming that you only play as that type and not a hybrid mix )
- Summoner of any kind pre-Imp unless you get lucky killing some slimes
- Mages during the beginning of Normal and Hard modes
- Ranged, Guns: Normal pre-Dungeon/Boomstick and Hardmode at the beginning

The armor helps out a ton as well as the sentries. Kind of wish the armor was available sooner for the above.
 
All DD Helms give you a sentry bonus. Also, you get a set bonus for sentries by wearing a matching suit of DD armor. Tier 1 can get you to 3 + DD accesorry = 4. If I remember right Tier 2 full set gets you +4 sentries, you cap out at 4 so the accessory is damage only bonus.

Underpowered, MY opinion ( The below is assuming that you only play as that type and not a hybrid mix )
- Summoner of any kind pre-Imp unless you get lucky killing some slimes
- Mages during the beginning of Normal and Hard modes
- Ranged, Guns: Normal pre-Dungeon/Boomstick and Hardmode at the beginning

The armor helps out a ton as well as the sentries. Kind of wish the armor was available sooner for the above.
Does the sentry bonus apply to all sentries or only DD sentries?

We weren't talking about early game balance, we were talking about hardmode. Regardless, Mage certainly isn't underpowered at the beginning of hardmode. Summoner's hornets are very effective, the only problem is gating into the hornet tier. Guns are no-where near underpowered at either of those times.

This seems to be more about crutching bad players than actually balancing the armor tiers. Bee armor is perfectly fine for the time you have it.
 
These are considered Sentries: Queen Spider, Frost Hydra, Rainbow Crystal Staff, Lunar Portal Staff.

It applies to anything Sentry not just DD.

Bad players? You are soooooooooo right! I suck!

And last one before I am done with this. Let's say you want to be just a summoner ( as noted above ) Tell me how you would go about getting the armor and staff without being a hybrid?
 
These are considered Sentries: Queen Spider, Frost Hydra, Rainbow Crystal Staff, Lunar Portal Staff.

It applies to anything Sentry not just DD.

Bad players? You are soooooooooo right! I suck!

And last one before I am done with this. Let's say you want to be just a summoner ( as noted above ) Tell me how you would go about getting the armor and staff without being a hybrid?
Beyond the standard, difficult slime method I wouldn't. That's why I said summoner gating needs work, and frankly so does mage. Wand of Sparking isn't enough.
 
claiming "balance" at this point in the game's lifespan is meaningless, all semblance of it was thrown out the window when 1.3 dropped.

from seedler giving you a plantera-tier drop from fishing, stormbow with holy arrows, to frost and pumpkin moons being rendered almost totally obsolete by the lunar event gear (basically the only survivor is razorpine), the power curve turned into a power parabola only curbed by things doing 250 damage.


and yet, rod of discord is still 1/500 in expert mode despite that being the difficulty that makes it easier to farm for items.

there are a lot of issues right now, but i believe that the next update is doing some re-balancing? i'm admittedly somewhat afraid of the direction it'll go in, but it's ultimately not my place to call any of the shots on any balance changes i'd make since i'm too lazy to make a balance mod and i'm also not a developer.

it's all fairly meaningless to me though, since i can just set house rules when playing and i just like to hit things. video games are fun.
 
also, I know that the Queen Bee is dropping items much unbalanced (if not UNBALANCED) than the Spore (jungle), Aqua (dungeon), and Molten (Underworld), for example, the Bee Knees does 26 damage when compared to the 22 of Hell Wing

EDIT: while said Hell Wing has more speed than the Bee Knees, it is completely inaccurate when compared to the Bee Knees, and both weapons are super good against your hard Pre-HM challenge
 
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claiming "balance" at this point in the game's lifespan is meaningless, all semblance of it was thrown out the window when 1.3 dropped.

from seedler giving you a plantera-tier drop from fishing, stormbow with holy arrows, to frost and pumpkin moons being rendered almost totally obsolete by the lunar event gear (basically the only survivor is razorpine), the power curve turned into a power parabola only curbed by things doing 250 damage.


and yet, rod of discord is still 1/500 in expert mode despite that being the difficulty that makes it easier to farm for items.

there are a lot of issues right now, but i believe that the next update is doing some re-balancing? i'm admittedly somewhat afraid of the direction it'll go in, but it's ultimately not my place to call any of the shots on any balance changes i'd make since i'm too lazy to make a balance mod and i'm also not a developer.

it's all fairly meaningless to me though, since i can just set house rules when playing and i just like to hit things. video games are fun.
Seedler is a Plantera drop, though. The Stormbow is heavily unbalanced. The Moons are fun escapades that provide valuable alternatives to other late-game gear, such as the ever powerful North Pole and Blizzard Staff. The Rod of Discord, I do wish was properly Expert'ed, however it is a ludicrously powerful item.
 
also, I know that the Queen Bee is dropping items much unbalanced (if not UNBALANCED) than the Spore (jungle), Aqua (dungeon), and Molten (Underworld), for example, the Bee Knees does 26 damage when compared to the 22 of Hell Wing

Um...

Do you have no concept of attack speed and other perks?

Hellwing Bow has 22 Damage while the Bee's Knees has 26 damage.....but the Hellwing Bow fires faster projectiles that can pierce enemies (and thus hit a large enemy twice). It has a minor tradeoff in the form of reduced accuracy, but still.

Molten Fury is an old item and I do think it could use a leg up; it is far too slow to be of any practical use.
 
Seedler is a Plantera drop, though.
You used to be able to get it from Hardmode Jungle Crates. Fairly shortly into 1.3's update lifespan it was removed, but it wasn't actually added to Plantera's Treasure Bag, so it was completely unobtainable in an Expert world for.. how long was it? Three or four months?

The Stormbow is heavily unbalanced.
The problem is in Holy Arrows. Everyone talks about how powerful Stormbow is but they only ever talk about it with Holy Arrows - those arrows simply weren't designed to be used with a shotbow that early on, let alone a shotbow with a titanic 54 base attack. Any other arrow barring maybe Hellfire is nowhere near as powerful with this weapon as it's otherwise too impractical to use.

Baghnakhs are scarier, anyway, but those are only really abusable on a few bosses if you aren't in multiplayer with somebody holding boss aggro.

The Moons are fun escapades that provide valuable alternatives to other late-game gear, such as the ever powerful North Pole and Blizzard Staff.
Blizzard Staff lost its niche when we got access to Meteor Staff. North Pole is probably the only item out of all of them that still has any form of niche at all when Solar weapons exist, but why would you set up a North Pole stacking precast when you can just dive into it with Baghnakhs, throw Daybreak at it, or shotgun it with Solar Eruption?

The only weapon from both of these events that isn't dead at this point is Snowman Cannon, simply because it homes in and you can use it to blast mine unlike with Celebration.

There is no power curve anymore. Anything added in 1.3 was noticeably above it, except for Molotovs getting nerfed in availability for some reason despite adding infinitely more powerful things to earlygame. Too many speedunners defeating Wall in one night, I guess?

I can understand all the changes that were made to the Moon Lord, but I just don't understand the disregard for the power curve. I'm fine with Moon Lord weapons being stupidly powerful, but weapons that you use for about one invasion's worth of bosses on replace themselves within ten minutes of gameplay.

The Rod of Discord, I do wish was properly Expert'ed, however it is a ludicrously powerful item.
Discord is a luxury item that gets banned from use on most servers so I really wish we'd just get to craft it so we don't have to chew through TWO THOUSAND Chaos Elementals for one person to get theirs.

You don't understand how obnoxious people building large fortresses is until you can't ignore walls with Discord anymore.
 
Stormbow+Jester Arrows still work on the Destroyer pretty flippin' well, and arguably somewhat on Prime too.

But yeah, the Holy Arrows are just out of this world ridiculous. Hey, let's take 54 base damage, shoot what is that again 4, projectiles... and then get 4 more FREE projectiles, so we can effectively do a combined damage of 220+ with each shot.

Yeah, that's... not overpowered or anything, is it?

As for the other stuff, I'm gonna give a giant "MEH" there.

Terraria is not meant to be this super-balanced game. It's a game where you can modify terrain, fight some bosses, and choose what you want to use. You want to make everything easy as pie by purposefully using the most overpowered crap in the game? Fine. Do that.

Terraria is YOUR game. Play it how you wish.

Too easy? Stop using the overpowered junk.

In fact, some overpowered stuff is healthy for a game, that way lesser-skilled players can find ways to do it too, and besides. You can build a boss grinder arena that will kill dang near anything without even having to touch it.

Are a few overpowered weapons/armor really that big of a deal?
 
You used to be able to get it from Hardmode Jungle Crates. Fairly shortly into 1.3's update lifespan it was removed, but it wasn't actually added to Plantera's Treasure Bag, so it was completely unobtainable in an Expert world for.. how long was it? Three or four months?


The problem is in Holy Arrows. Everyone talks about how powerful Stormbow is but they only ever talk about it with Holy Arrows - those arrows simply weren't designed to be used with a shotbow that early on, let alone a shotbow with a titanic 54 base attack. Any other arrow barring maybe Hellfire is nowhere near as powerful with this weapon as it's otherwise too impractical to use.

Baghnakhs are scarier, anyway, but those are only really abusable on a few bosses if you aren't in multiplayer with somebody holding boss aggro.


Blizzard Staff lost its niche when we got access to Meteor Staff. North Pole is probably the only item out of all of them that still has any form of niche at all when Solar weapons exist, but why would you set up a North Pole stacking precast when you can just dive into it with Baghnakhs, throw Daybreak at it, or shotgun it with Solar Eruption?

The only weapon from both of these events that isn't dead at this point is Snowman Cannon, simply because it homes in and you can use it to blast mine unlike with Celebration.

There is no power curve anymore. Anything added in 1.3 was noticeably above it, except for Molotovs getting nerfed in availability for some reason despite adding infinitely more powerful things to earlygame. Too many speedunners defeating Wall in one night, I guess?

I can understand all the changes that were made to the Moon Lord, but I just don't understand the disregard for the power curve. I'm fine with Moon Lord weapons being stupidly powerful, but weapons that you use for about one invasion's worth of bosses on replace themselves within ten minutes of gameplay.


Discord is a luxury item that gets banned from use on most servers so I really wish we'd just get to craft it so we don't have to chew through TWO THOUSAND Chaos Elementals for one person to get theirs.

You don't understand how obnoxious people building large fortresses is until you can't ignore walls with Discord anymore.
I wasn't able to play for about 6 months after 1.3's release, so I didn't know that.

I can't see Baghnakhs being viable at all in expert, with the amount of damage you'd have to risk to use them, especially on something like Plantera with ludicrous contact damage.

How could the Meteor Staff possibly outplay the Blizzard Staff? It's slow, has a low projectile count, and takes up a ridiculous cost. The Blizzard Staff supplies much more projectiles with similar damage ability at a lower cost.

Baghnakhs are too short, and both of those weapons are Celestial tier, so I'm not sure why you're comparing them to penultimate tier equipment.

I forgot Molotovs even existed; I've never crafted any.

I disagree on some of your views but I am your ally in this argument. 1.3 decimated the power curve and I wouldn't mind a sole update or 2 rebalancing tiers to mingle more appropriately, especially the underpowered penultimate tier. It gets boring seeing Celestial-tier items used at all times.
 
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