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tModLoader Lets talk about Ancients Awakened and how authors don't use the forums anymore

Discussion in 'General Mod Discussion' started by IDGCaptainRussia, Mar 26, 2019.

  1. IDGCaptainRussia

    IDGCaptainRussia Skeletron

    So for a while now there's been this new mod brewing some of you may have heard of called Ancients Awakened, and some are starting to feel it's going to be a "Calamity Killer"
    I can't say for that for sure, but from my experiences the mod is really good but it does miss in quite a few areas; it does some thing really well and others, not so much. (Awesome as hell biomes, pretty meh boss fights, they do seem to be getting better thou with each update)

    This isn't a new mod, it's been in the works for a couple of years now and has quite the planning going on with more to come as the beta draws out. And that's great! It's been a while since a good large content mod was on the rise and this one is very promising; I like it alot.

    But Ancients Awakened would be the first to do what alot of the large content mod authors are doing these days: leaving the TCF behind and going pure discord (alot of mods that do this are usually not that good, this is one of the few that isn't). And I don't even think Alphakip is in the TMODloader discord and barely talks to any of them. (Doing a search of the mod's name would show it's still not that well known and people involved in it that were part of the TMODLoader discord are gone, some drama here and there but there's no need to recap it)
    I remember a time before discord, back when forums were the meat of sociability on the internet. I'm old school I know that, but I'm not a fan of a trend that may end one day without warning.

    The general idea from what Fabsol said in Calamity's thread is that "by having a discord, we can avoid being moderated by the staff of TCF, and we can take matters into our hands"
    But honestly, all I've seen is more drama come out of all of that than if matters were done here, I've stated before I think TCF's staff is some of the most professional around and I mean, relogic still lacks these site so there's still alot of love and care put into every aspect of it.

    So then, why are they forsaken?

    This is meant to be an intelligent discussion to open not only my eyes further and understand more of the world but the eyes of others as well; I do not intend for more drama or the sort to come from this please. I could have posted this on discord but I really don't want to (I don't like discord as a public outlet for discussion)
     
  2. IDGCaptainRussia

    IDGCaptainRussia Skeletron

    I guess if I asked this in the TMODLoader or some discord I'd get replies.
    Seriously though, doesn't this concern anyone else? To me it feels like the health of the Terraria Community Forums is in decline if people are ignoring them in favor of just discord. I am NOT white knighting the staff here when I keep saying how professional they are and the reasons to ditch TCF for Discord is often to avoid being moderated by them (every mod author who believes that needs to get their head straight and not blow a fuse when something doesn't work for 1 minute, I'm not gonna say names but you know who you are if you even visited TCF anymore)

    So yeah, I want to hear what others have to say, I know people have been viewing this. Spread the message for others to share their thoughts here if you have none of your own!
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2019
    Lunatic Lobbyist likes this.
  3. Kojiro_S

    Kojiro_S Spazmatism

    Well, I've noticed a trend that lots of mods uploaded to the browser have just a fricking discord link as their mod description... yeah. Way to promote your mod. Just like clicking through clickbait paid link mazes to reach a download for something you may not even like in the end.
     
    Lunatic Lobbyist likes this.
  4. IDGCaptainRussia

    IDGCaptainRussia Skeletron

    Ouch, I wasn't even talking about this. Just the standard mod info and the mod homepage link is a discord lnvite.

    Maybe at the end of the day I'm just upset my childhood forums I grew up with is gone and I really, really don't want to see the same fate befall Terraria's Forums.
     
  5. Lunatic Lobbyist

    Lunatic Lobbyist The Destroyer

    I don't visit the General Mods forum often. Ironically, the only reason I found this was because I was trying to find the actual thread for "Ancients Awakened", and this was what I ended up with.

    Agreed completely with all sentiments above -- it's a damn shame when mod creators/teams don't bother with forum threads. I have no problem with using discord itself, and understand all its benefits for creators. But the main problem with only using discord is finding the all necessary information on what the mod actually is, with all of its content in an easy-to-find layout is virtually impossible. This problem gets infinitely worse with larger mods.

    For a larger mod, there needs to be something else in tandem with it. Take Terraria Overhaul for example -- a incredibly huge mod that takes quite a while to understand all that it does. It has a discord, a fairly informative forum page, a decent wiki, along with Mirsario's Patron page that has all the latest update info in great detail -- that's technically 4 viable sources of information. If Terraria Overhaul only had the discord, I'm pretty sure most people would be completely clueless about most of its features.

    I saw something on Ancients Awakened's discord about a wiki, but it doesn't seem to be up yet as far as I can tell. They desperately need one, since the mod's simply too large not to if they don't have a forum page. I'd love to better-understand all this mod has to offer, but frankly, it's not worth the time commitment as-is. Any large mod needs at least 2 of the 3 (a Terraria forum page, a fully-featured wiki, and/or a discord), as just about all other large Terraria mods do.
     
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  6. Yvori

    Yvori Terrarian

    UGH. Sorry to necro this but I had a hellova experience just now.
    Had some... Feedback on my first experiences with the mod and some rather infuriating worldgen and design decisions.
    Oh. No forum thread. Now, I hate joining large Discord servers, and I hate staying in a bunch of Discord servers.
    So I decided to just use the temp-account thing to post there. Except they have it set up so you need a verified account to post in their Discord!
    So I got on my actual account. And there's a 10 minute wait after joining before you can post!

    And holy hell they have to have like 40 different channels and that's a conservative estimate. Instant barrage of rules, hundreds of people, tons of channels and posts and how in the actual fnark is one supposed to find ANY information in this format? You can't just click "go to first post in channel" or anything. Discord's searching feature is woefully ill-equipped for any significant search of any number of words or combinations thereof. Just... Ack. Discord was NOT designed for this type of thing.

    Anyway, left my feedback (which included at least two rambles about why they really really need to set up a forum thread for the good of the mod and its users but I digress) and left the server because it was too overwhelming... So welp, won't get to see any responses either, probably.
    Really really poor system. This is why I usually avoid any mods that ONLY have a Discord, or only have a Discord and a really really basic description on a forgotten forum post or inside the mod browser. But I'd been so hyped about AA from the music that I couldn't help it.

    Now I just feel frustrated and like none of this was at all worth the time investment, and I'm considering removing it just because of how painful it is to contact the devs about anything... Hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...


    Edit: Like really seriously they had like 4 meme channels, 10+ random chatting channels, and even movie discussion channels and a dedicated Avengers Endgame Spoiler channel. Discord's very nature turns what SHOULD be a mod-oriented community into an entire social club. Movie spoilers should NOT be a problem in a mod thread unless the author likes to throw in timely references in updates and junk.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
    Kojiro_S and IDGCaptainRussia like this.
  7. IDGCaptainRussia

    IDGCaptainRussia Skeletron

    *cue Calamity-like discord server here*

    Yup, the usual drop-in-quailty that comes from keeping only to discords. I tend to think this is because more even headed people are in the forums, and children run amok in discords.
    Yeah, I was already on the ball about making a discord for my mod, but I decided to as it would:
    A: Allow easier communication between my spriters and myself.
    B: Allow people to engage in a way the forums can't allow, people wanted it.
    C: Allow me to post announcements for things like upcoming features easier (thou, this will still go on the forums)

    The forums will, HOWEVER, have all the info you need to know for the mod. The discord will only sport a link back to the forums

    I'm going to suggest that the only thing Alphakip really needs to do with his mod is make a damn wiki, these types of mods NEED one and calamity+Thorium currently have all others beaten atm.
    If Ancients Awakened wants to be this "Calamity Killer" people are calling it out to be, this is something Calamity has 1up'd it over for sure.
    Atleast, you KNOW you have information at your finger tips with Calamity.

    EDIT/Continued:
    This is sadly, a flaw that seems to be plaguing alot of new mods. Where the devs think everyone can figure it out without a problem.
    I'm not meaning to cast shade by saying this, but I like to use SirAFK's More Pets as a prime candidate for what I consider a "cluster:red:" of mod design. This mod adds alot of cool items that you have 0 idea how to get since you can't ever figure out where the items drop from. It doesn't help AFK closed his thread some time ago and without a wiki... Yeah your completely lost with figuring any of this out...

    I feel Ancients Awakened is in a similar but not quite as bad boat. The mod thankfully supports mods like boss checklist (and even boss healthbar!) so you know atleast what bosses there are to fight. If it wasn't for a design doc back in summer of last year, I'd be lost too.

    Oh hey, turns out, there IS a wiki now! Ancients Awakened

    Outside of all that I've talked with a friend how this isn't a bad mod it's just, a mega-mega-mixed bag. You got really cool stuff on one side of the coin, and you got bad stuff on the otherside (an example would be Broodmother's sprite as the good side, and how buggy this boss is and how it's facing the wrong way on the bad side; Alphakip may have patched this in the latest version thou, I hope so)
    And it's a shame you've been denied your ability to leave feedback, your feedback is top notch Yvori, I hope you realize that.
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2019
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  8. IDGCaptainRussia

    IDGCaptainRussia Skeletron

    Yvori likes this.
  9. Unusacies

    Unusacies Terrarian

    Personally I understand the wish of people to have the mods link to a discord instead of a forum post or other information having webpage. but like, I feel I should request for modloader itself to have 2 possible links differentiating them as "to the mods webpage" and "to the mod's discord server" as joining a discord has a lot more steps to it and its a lot more messy to go around and find the information you need, more than a wiki or forum post at least.

    Discord is first and foremost a communication tool, not a wiki. forums posts themselves usually have a longer lasting aspect that discord posts do not.
    Yet again, I understand the wish or impulse to do so. however an example I can give was on the Mystica mod. in the thread itself all it says (at the time of writting this) is to join the discord to learn about the mod. which is really unhelpful. someone asked the dev about what the class in the mod did to distinguish it from others, the dev responded he would answer in the discord server.

    I get the feeling of like when you looked for a solution to a problem on your PC or whatever in a random forum, and the thread just says "I'll DM you the solution" or "Found a solution, thread closed".

    Like... Chat clients are much more personal than a forum post sure, and thats the appeal to many, but when looking for information on a mod I am trying to play I would gladly look at a long forum post rather than ask the dev personally to explain to me whats up with their mod every time I have a question.
    A Discord is not made for general information dump, yet again a Forum Post is slightly better for it, and a Wiki is exactly for that purpose.
     
    PhilBill44, Kojiro_S and Yvori like this.
  10. Yvori

    Yvori Terrarian

    I wouldn't say a drop in quality, per-say, but definitely a contributing aspect to not recieving as much feedback in as organized a manner. It can also lead to a somewhat elitist view, I.E. "this is OUR Discord" rather than "this is the thread for our mod on TERRARIA's forums". For example, I got a response from someone on the AA Discord, who will remain anonymous, who stated in a Forum PM they agreed with my feedback, and also included a screenshot of one of the dev's responses to my feedback, which seemed to entirely amount to the equivalent of "Yeah we're gonna not listen to this because [Yvori] didn't want to stay on the Discord to see our responses". Which well... If the "oof" meme had any legitimate use, I feel this would be one of them.

    Also, that said, thank you for the compliment. I try to be in-depth with my feedback from a user standpoint, as well as a developer standpoint.

    This is essentially exactly the reasoning I gave. All these points perfectly encompass my feelings on the matter. I'm glad to see someone else gets it so thoroughly.
     
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  11. IDGCaptainRussia

    IDGCaptainRussia Skeletron

    I'd say the forums are full of more adult/level headed mature people who know what makes a good mod and what doesn't, even the grand mod authors once used the forums at the start (maybe because discord didn't exist?). Meanwhile discord is full of more immature kids and often times I can see these types of people being put at the front and in power, maybe because their friends, maybe the owner doesn't want to ban them? Eitherway, they remain, and they degrade the scene.
    Reasons aside, I've seen these types of people on TCF, they either aren't active here or they're banned pretty quick the moment they start getting toxic.

    Elitist, that pretty much sums of the general idea here and why I often call Discord out for creating rifts in communities.
    I mean, why would they want to play by TCF's rules when they can make their own? Grow up without them?
    It's (or should be known) that TCF staff deem anything that happens "out there" as not their business or ours on TCF, they don't want to moderate it (even if they could)
    And can I blame them? No. (I swear if I get a mark from staff for talking about this this'll prove TCF is a hugbox, which I honestly hope it's not)

    Yeah being forced to join a discord to even GET the mod would be too much, this is what you gotta do if you want a mod called Dagor Dagoroth from Battle for Middle Earth 2, and the reason it's like this is because the mod is contraband and was C&D'd by another mod team for stolen assets. So at-least there's more reason than just trying to grow the largest discord (and the people on that discord are pretty alright, can't say that for AA's server likely)

    Can't tell you how many times I've seen people forwarding messages from a discord to a thread because of "various reasons" the mod authors can't tell us on the forums.

    I also feel a mod's direction only gets worse once money starts getting involved, it makes people want to stop making mods for fun and instead go to work 'for cough calamity' where now they are getting paid, and AA has patrons so of course it does.
    This would lead up to a suspicion I have that calamity will never be finished because finished mod=no money and perhaps AA as well, but that's not for this thread.

    Eitherway, Alphakip made the thread (finally), the mod DOES have a wiki. You can barrage it with your feedback, if he listens or not is up to him.
    harsh criticism aside, I hope AA becomes a really good content mod in the end. It has the potential to do so if Alpha makes the right choices.

    "A smart mod author would be willing to listen with all ears, not the one that whispers what he wants the most."
    It's a folly he didn't give you a chance.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2019
  12. Yvori

    Yvori Terrarian

    I must add it wasn't Alphakip that responded in such a way. It was someone else. But ah, who it was doesn't matter. The point is, they've made a thread now, and that's the primary thing I wanted to get across to them; that a thread is important for the community, so I'm glad they did so (whether or not my coincidentally-close feedback to the establisment of said thread contributed or not)
     
  13. Alphakip

    Alphakip Terrarian

    Hey, I just wanted to make a post here and explain a bit.

    I’ve been told most of my time as a mod dev by other mod devs to avoid the community forums, because of it being toxic. And after exploring it for myself a bit recently, i’ve discovered that it’s not as bad as I’ve been told. I’m gonna attempt to be on here more often now.
     
  14. IDGCaptainRussia

    IDGCaptainRussia Skeletron

    Really? Huh... That's the first time I've heard that. (then again I prefer to avoid discord)
    It honestly sounds like some people got in a pinch here for their own reasons and started spreading rumors, rumors I can tell you are false.
    As I can also tell you from personal experience, these forums are far, far, from the toxic levels I've seen and dealt with on other forums and communities. I consider them new home after the fall of Seriouszone. And it's been a pleasant one.
    If your looking for modding help your likely not gonna find it here, that's what the TMODLoader discord is for, but, if your looking for people with respectful feedback and opinions, there's plenty of that to be found here, @Yvori has given other mod devs really constructive feedback and your not going to regret any of it.

    I'm very happy you decided to listen, now all I can hope is you stay a while. (lol cringy diablo reference)
     
    Lunatic Lobbyist likes this.
  15. Yvori

    Yvori Terrarian

    Thank you for reconsidering. I honestly don't know how that's the case. I second what IDG said above, in that these forums have, in my eyes at least, been pretty consistently relaxed and understanding, with decent feedback and stuff, especially compared to other forums. At least when it comes to modding, that is. I pretty much avoid the rest of the forums, mostly since they don't interest me, so I can't say for sure what it's all like.
     
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  16. Lunatic Lobbyist

    Lunatic Lobbyist The Destroyer

    Much respect for you not only making a forum thread as a mod dev, but posting in this thread to politely explain things -- which had to be a bit intimidating in your shoes.

    I agree completely with the 2 above posts -- for me, visiting this forum has been generally a very positive experience. I've seen occasional drama, or moderators who get a bit too egotistical -- but those examples very rare from what I've seen; it's been more laid-back here than nearly any other online community I've been a part of in recent years.

    Regardless, I'm confident you'll find yourself at home here. Looking forward to seeing the mod thread grow, along with the wiki -- and eventually, trying the mod itself! :)
     
    IDGCaptainRussia likes this.
  17. Yvori

    Yvori Terrarian

    Whew... Starting to see why even an anonymous Terraria dev says the forums are bad.
    We've just been mainly in the User Created Content part of the forum, the good part.
    Looking at general discussion, and having been spending far too long on the new blog post with the """lore""", I'm seeing there are a lot of...
    erh... less than intellectual commentaries, incredibly dumb and/or sarcastic "meme" responses (if they can even be called memes), and off-topic neandering.
    What little proper discussion there is gets buried under the onslaught of junk, and I could see how people dealing with that on a daily basis would get some pretty gnarly headaches.
     
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  18. IDGCaptainRussia

    IDGCaptainRussia Skeletron

    I've... never looked in those areas tbh.
    Makes me feel ever more understanding for the staff who have to put up with that and deal with it...
    I can better understand that, well that area is full of children.

    I've said it once before (maybe not on the forums but here goes) that getting Terraria setup for mods isn't hard, but it's still something that takes a bit of know-how; something children arn't going to be able to easily do. So a result this area of the site is void of these types mostly.
    We got a few here and there because they want to mod their game (or think they can mod their console game), but that's natural.
    Eitherway, atleast now I see another angle where this dissidence is coming from
     
  19. Airarret

    Airarret Terrarian

    Why do you think it's named Discord?

    Personally I have zero intention of ever getting on Discord. I didn't like using IRC back in the day, because with instant conversation the signal-to-noise ratio is terrible; and Discord is the same thing except instead of an open standard with lots of clients and anyone being able to create a server if they have the computer and bandwidth for, Discord is all proprietary software running on Discord's own servers.
     
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  20. IDGCaptainRussia

    IDGCaptainRussia Skeletron

    Ah finally, someone who speaks the truth and can see past the facade of crap.
    For me I grew up with forums and while I did have an IRC like AOL messenger (rip AOL messenger lol) so that's just me.
    However, you've pointed out what it really is. People too often think they're free to do what they want and learn the hard way that discord owns anything practely you use on their servers.
    Also, the controversy sounding them allowing Cubbing and the FBI getting involved as well; if your counting only on discord your in for a major loss if something bad happens to it.

    Well I know one thing for sure: Chaos, is a wonderful, wonderful thing.
    For people who like that, of course...